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Steve Francis/Isiah Thomas Blunders?
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DrkPhoenixSaga
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2/13/2007  12:28 AM
Since Francis coming back only hurts their chemistry, it's more likely that Thomas (or the Dolans that'r in his ears) is trying to:
1. See if he has any chance of helping the team
2. Build his value in the least bit to move him in the next couple of years and not buy him out.
3. Show he doesn't have it anymore so he can be bought out at a cheaper price had he not played

The Jazz loss hurts a lot less then the way Utah felt after Marbury embarressed Okur in NY. The Knicks gave this game to Utah and knelt down on bended knee saying, "today....my father will be you."
AUTOADVERT
Allanfan20
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2/13/2007  12:31 AM
Subzero from a coward to an all world poster, the answer to your question is this. I was against trading for Francis before it happened, I was pissed about it when it happened and I am even more angry now than then, that it happened. We already had a glut of guards who couldn't run an offense. Francis was never known as a PG. Just an undersized SG with a lot of athletic ability, kinda like Marbury and Nate and Jamal, so what do you think I would have done. I absolutely would NOT have made that trade.

To comment about Ariza, he was struggling last year, but he is what he is. A young player, maybe a little arrogant, who was struggling to to fit into Larry Brown's system, as every player was. Yet, he's still a defensive stud who can fill the lane, grab rebounds and pass the ball. If he adds a shot, he's even better off. Now that Jefferies is sucking it up, and Q is damaged goods, how is that trade looking now? We could use a young smart player who can play some defense right about now, heh?

After reading your post, I realized that laughing my ars at all of it was a 3 minutes of my life I'll never have back again, so I'll work on making up for that, while you work on calling people cowards, over the internet.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
djsunyc
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2/13/2007  8:24 AM
Posted by Queeniepop:

Isiah and Larry both know the personnel on this team and Francis was the "nail in the coffin" (DJSunyc, What Did You Do To My Team, Isiah???. (November 2006). McGraw-Hill; pgs. 60-72.)

now available in paperback. check your local book stores now - and it makes a great valentine's day gift.

subzero0
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2/13/2007  8:55 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:


To comment about Ariza, he was struggling last year, but he is what he is. A young player, maybe a little arrogant, who was struggling to to fit into Larry Brown's system, as every player was. Yet, he's still a defensive stud who can fill the lane, grab rebounds and pass the ball. If he adds a shot, he's even better off. Now that Jefferies is sucking it up, and Q is damaged goods, how is that trade looking now? We could use a young smart player who can play some defense right about now, heh?

Ummm, isnt Ariza injured right now. Francis is playing right. Marbury is hurt and I wont trust Nate Robinson to run a McDonalds much less an NBA basketball team. Again, lets go over this Francis is filling a role for us because the other two back court players dont cut it right now. Ariza is injured. Should I go over this one more time? Wow, the trade actually does look pretty good now.

Only when I called you out were you able to answer my question. So I stand by my coward remark :). Secondly, in retrospect I would not have made the move, I like Ariza and was sad to see him go. But when you are losing and you coach begs you to get Steve Francis (and yes he did beg him for Steve Francis, the article about this came out only a week ago... though I am way too lazy right now to find it) then you go get Steve Francis.

Now ask yourself this Ariza was not fitting into Browns system, Brown being a defensive minded coach. Why? Isnt Ariza a "defensive stud"? No, he isnt. Everyone just thinks he is because he has steals the ball. However, if you really analyzed Trevor Ariza, from his rookie year to his sophomore year, you would realize that his opponents were never shut down by him. Again we ask, why? Because of the simple fact that Trevor Ariza gambles too much for the steal allowing his opponents to routinely get behind him causing the defense to collapse leading to high percentage field goals. It happened, over and over and over again. It got so bad that our defensive minded coach put Ariza in the dog house, called him delusional and never returned to him.

So you are a general manager and your player is languishing on the bench. A rift is expanding between a player who does not play and your hall of fame coach. This same coach begs you to get Steve Francis because that is the only way you are going to win some games and he swears up and down in the media Ariza will never play for him again. I didnt like the move, but I understood why Isiah made it because in the same situation, even if you would not have traded Ariza, I would have.

With that said, I would have been kicking myself now for making that trade. On the same token, though IN THAT SITUATION, it was really the only thing to do. This isnt Isiah's fault bro, it was Larry Brown's coupled with the situation at the time.
KnickerBlogger
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2/13/2007  9:33 AM
Posted by subzero0:
Posted by Allanfan20:

Isiah making this trade in order to get Larry to stop begging, even though he knew Francis would be bad for the team is the same thing as a Mommy buying chocolate for her kid, begging for Chocolate, even though the kid is allergic to chocolate...

You are losing games, fans are losing patience, your team has sunk to its lowest level of morale, your boss wants results and a hall of fame coach you hired asks for a solid point guard. Orlando agrees to take junk back for Steve Francis. What would you do?

Isiah’s Latest Trade Is A No-Brainer -
http://www.knickerblogger.net/?p=356
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Masterplan
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2/13/2007  9:44 AM
Posted by subzero0:
Posted by Allanfan20:


To comment about Ariza, he was struggling last year, but he is what he is. A young player, maybe a little arrogant, who was struggling to to fit into Larry Brown's system, as every player was. Yet, he's still a defensive stud who can fill the lane, grab rebounds and pass the ball. If he adds a shot, he's even better off. Now that Jefferies is sucking it up, and Q is damaged goods, how is that trade looking now? We could use a young smart player who can play some defense right about now, heh?

Ummm, isnt Ariza injured right now. Francis is playing right. Marbury is hurt and I wont trust Nate Robinson to run a McDonalds much less an NBA basketball team. Again, lets go over this Francis is filling a role for us because the other two back court players dont cut it right now. Ariza is injured. Should I go over this one more time? Wow, the trade actually does look pretty good now

Only when I called you out were you able to answer my question. So I stand by my coward remark :). Secondly, in retrospect I would not have made the move, I like Ariza and was sad to see him go. But when you are losing and you coach begs you to get Steve Francis (and yes he did beg him for Steve Francis, the article about this came out only a week ago... though I am way too lazy right now to find it) then you go get Steve Francis.

Now ask yourself this Ariza was not fitting into Browns system, Brown being a defensive minded coach. Why? Isnt Ariza a "defensive stud"? No, he isnt. Everyone just thinks he is because he has steals the ball. However, if you really analyzed Trevor Ariza, from his rookie year to his sophomore year, you would realize that his opponents were never shut down by him. Again we ask, why? Because of the simple fact that Trevor Ariza gambles too much for the steal allowing his opponents to routinely get behind him causing the defense to collapse leading to high percentage field goals. It happened, over and over and over again. It got so bad that our defensive minded coach put Ariza in the dog house, called him delusional and never returned to him.

So you are a general manager and your player is languishing on the bench. A rift is expanding between a player who does not play and your hall of fame coach. This same coach begs you to get Steve Francis because that is the only way you are going to win some games and he swears up and down in the media Ariza will never play for him again. I didnt like the move, but I understood why Isiah made it because in the same situation, even if you would not have traded Ariza, I would have.

With that said, I would have been kicking myself now for making that trade. On the same token, though IN THAT SITUATION, it was really the only thing to do. This isnt Isiah's fault bro, it was Larry Brown's coupled with the situation at the time.

when your team is struggling to its worst finish in franchise history, you do not make win-now moves. you make moves to improve your future prospects.
KnickerBlogger
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2/13/2007  9:57 AM
Posted by subzero0:



A SOLID YOUNG PLAYER??? AT THAT TIME OF THE YEAR???? Have you forgotten how much Trevor Ariza was stinking it up last year? Dude either you have a short memory or you are hoping we all dont remember how bad Trevor Ariza was doing.
...

Now ask yourself this Ariza was not fitting into Browns system, Brown being a defensive minded coach. Why? Isnt Ariza a "defensive stud"? No, he isnt. Everyone just thinks he is because he has steals the ball. However, if you really analyzed Trevor Ariza, from his rookie year to his sophomore year, you would realize that his opponents were never shut down by him.

Ariza was 20 years old at the time. Even at that young age, he showed good rebounding skills, quick hands, and a strong ability to finish around the hoop and draw fouls. It's hard to expect him to be a shutdown defender at that age as well. We could have sat on him for a few years.
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subzero0
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2/13/2007  9:57 AM
But bro, from the impression I get of Larry Brown is "win now". That was the plan going into last season. When it didnt materialize, you start to think that maybe a trade for a Steve Francis can ignite you in some way. But like I keep saying hindsight is always 20-20.
subzero0
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2/13/2007  9:59 AM
Posted by KnickerBlogger:
Posted by subzero0:



A SOLID YOUNG PLAYER??? AT THAT TIME OF THE YEAR???? Have you forgotten how much Trevor Ariza was stinking it up last year? Dude either you have a short memory or you are hoping we all dont remember how bad Trevor Ariza was doing.
...

Now ask yourself this Ariza was not fitting into Browns system, Brown being a defensive minded coach. Why? Isnt Ariza a "defensive stud"? No, he isnt. Everyone just thinks he is because he has steals the ball. However, if you really analyzed Trevor Ariza, from his rookie year to his sophomore year, you would realize that his opponents were never shut down by him.

Ariza was 20 years old at the time. Even at that young age, he showed good rebounding skills, quick hands, and a strong ability to finish around the hoop and draw fouls. It's hard to expect him to be a shutdown defender at that age as well. We could have sat on him for a few years.

Good point. That is the same way I was thinking. I still believe Ariza will be awesome when he comes back, he already proved it for several games this season. But it was all about the situation he was in here. I still firmly believe that.
Masterplan
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2/13/2007  10:18 AM
Posted by subzero0:

But bro, from the impression I get of Larry Brown is "win now". That was the plan going into last season. When it didnt materialize, you start to think that maybe a trade for a Steve Francis can ignite you in some way. But like I keep saying hindsight is always 20-20.

yes last season was definitely conceived as winning- we were supposed to get that magic +10 wins from LB, didn't have our pick etc. but when we made the trade we were 15-38 (give or take a few days, i think that was when it went down). 38 losses? we could add duncan, garnett, kobe and nash and still not make the playoffs.

i can see the point of making trades to break the losing habit. but at that point you have to be planning more than a few months ahead. francis was a bad idea- career loser, not a good fit and not movable *when* it went wrong. and he has no place on this team- maybe not even in the league- in a few more years. no hindsight here- i was against it from the first rumors, hated him back when he was in houston getting voted an all-star starter on 30-some win teams.

i still can't believe he's on this team. i was warming up to this group while steve was away and i could forget he's a knick.
subzero0
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2/13/2007  11:53 AM
Posted by Masterplan:
Posted by subzero0:

But bro, from the impression I get of Larry Brown is "win now". That was the plan going into last season. When it didnt materialize, you start to think that maybe a trade for a Steve Francis can ignite you in some way. But like I keep saying hindsight is always 20-20.

yes last season was definitely conceived as winning- we were supposed to get that magic +10 wins from LB, didn't have our pick etc. but when we made the trade we were 15-38 (give or take a few days, i think that was when it went down). 38 losses? we could add duncan, garnett, kobe and nash and still not make the playoffs.

i can see the point of making trades to break the losing habit. but at that point you have to be planning more than a few months ahead. francis was a bad idea- career loser, not a good fit and not movable *when* it went wrong. and he has no place on this team- maybe not even in the league- in a few more years. no hindsight here- i was against it from the first rumors, hated him back when he was in houston getting voted an all-star starter on 30-some win teams.

i still can't believe he's on this team. i was warming up to this group while steve was away and i could forget he's a knick.

Granted he should have looked ahead and saw that Larry Brown and his style would not have lasted, but desperation is a powerful thing.
Marv
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2/13/2007  12:11 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Queeniepop:

Isiah and Larry both know the personnel on this team and Francis was the "nail in the coffin" (DJSunyc, What Did You Do To My Team, Isiah???. (November 2006). McGraw-Hill; pgs. 60-72.)

now available in paperback. check your local book stores now - and it makes a great valentine's day gift.

i heard it was the man in the middle of its time.
djsunyc
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2/13/2007  12:14 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Queeniepop:

Isiah and Larry both know the personnel on this team and Francis was the "nail in the coffin" (DJSunyc, What Did You Do To My Team, Isiah???. (November 2006). McGraw-Hill; pgs. 60-72.)

now available in paperback. check your local book stores now - and it makes a great valentine's day gift.

i heard it was the man in the middle of its time.

here's a very quick excerpt from chapter 1, titled "it was the worst of times, it was the worst of times..."

"four seasons and $500 million ago..."

and that's all you're going to get. for an extra $2, i'll even autograph it for you.
Allanfan20
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2/13/2007  12:25 PM
subzero, while I respect the arguement you just presented to me, I just don't appreciate you calling me a coward and would like you to come to that understanding. You don't know me, so I'll leave that there.

As for your Ariza arguement, I'll just come to this conclusion, based on reading your posts. You seem to take things day by day, which may make you a very successful person, as I am sure you are, but that doesn't work in the NBA.

You gotto look at the long term. Francis was never a fit for this team, and never will be, with or without Marbury, and I'll even go on to say that Marbury is not a fit for this team either. Hence, I can even go as far to say that Jamal might not be either. Hard to tell with Nate. However, I'll stick with Francis and Marbury, since they are both the same player. Right now, we need two types of guards. We need guards who are fundamentally sound. They need to be able to feed the post for Eddie Curry and Frye. We need a guard who will be able to distribute the ball anywhere at anytime. He doesn't have to be a star. He doesn't have to be great. He can be Charlie Ward for that matter. We need that type of player though. A guy who can just run the offense. Francis and Marbury are NOT those types of players. Second, we need guards who are good second or third option scorers, who can hit a shot from mid range and long range. A realistic player to have, that fits that mold is Mike Miller. This type of player also has to be a sound passer. Just remember, this is all under the assumption that we are building around Curry. Francis and Marbury STILL don't fit this mold, as they play best as go to guards which is fine, but not under this system. Finally, we need wing players who can play DEFENSE so that guys wont flood Eddie Curry, who is already a defensive liability. This is where Trevor Ariza fits the bill.

Subzero, you are absolutely correct that Mr. Ariza was not a great defender yet. In fact, I was argueing that same thing with people on this board. I was saying that very same thing, you are now, to people who thought he was the next Shawn Marion or Richard Jefferson. However, he still has the mental and physical capabilities to be a VERY GOOD defensive players and he was never actually bad in the first place. A gambler, yes, but poor, NO. Plus, to top it off, he always seemed to enjoy playing defense, which only made his upside on that end, rise. And he's injured now, but he'll be back man, and he'll have a spot on the Orlando Magic, waiting for him, as long as he continues to work. He's only 20, kinda dumb at times, but he's got the tools. We should have continued to work with him. Not trade him for someone who's not a fit for this team at all...
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Steve Francis/Isiah Thomas Blunders?

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