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Fixing the Franchise -- Can It Be Done.....REALISTICALLY?
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Rich
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2/2/2007  5:36 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

^ So did Layden.


Kiki is a clear upgrade. I think we can all see that.

We need to aim higher.
AUTOADVERT
SlimPack
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2/2/2007  5:38 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

^ I don't think you can build around Frye........really at all.

He's a nice starter on some teams, great role player on others.

He's basically a fringe starter at this point.


Curry right now is our most important asset. Do we keep him, do we trade him, and how long do we wait?


You can do it both ways. Trade Curry, go with the uptempo team, get a high pick in 08, rely on cap space in 09.

Then there's the "trade for a reliable force in the backcourt" scenario, which is even harder, although may pay more dividends in the long run.


I'm all for keeping Curry (and I do think he will continue to improve on offense), if it means we can get the pieces we need in a somewhat short span of time -- like say 2 years. Because once Curry hits his prime, and that's around 26 for most Centers, we need to be ready to compete...


i know. Im not saying that the knicks should build around frye, he isnt a franchise player. but I would choose him over curry if we had to choose one over the other, becuase frye has a more all around game, even though curry is the better player right now.

this line of reasoning of course stems from the fact that Im not sold on curry's ability to improve on his weaknesses. I dunno..... Im just turned off by the fact that he regressed a season in chicago and that he has regressed in rebounding this season. Me as a GM is a very cuatious person and I dont fully trust curry to improve as much as he can. I am more impressed with how frye improved this off season by bulking up. to me the safest and most prudent option is to go with the player with the better work ethic, and the one that seems to have higher BB iq. Which I beleive frye does even if only by a small margin.

although come to think of it its more likely that the knicks wont be able to trade curry any time soon because since the knicks are a losing team we may not get back appropriate value, which a GM would HAVE to do when trading curry. It would probably be a bad idea to just trade him for whatever you can get becuase he doesnt fit with frye right now.

anyway as far as the course to rebuild this team. I personally would simply rebuild. I would just make trades to make sure the team stinks next season (like perhaps trading marbury, richardson, and crawford), and basically wait to get lucky in the lottery.

if that isnt an option than I would keep the expiring of marbury or francis, and try to do a patch job on the current team (for example trading for players that are better fits), and hire a coach that will play them to their strengths only. but at the same time Id have to take a gamble in order to acquire a franchise player (like swinging a trade for someone like gerald green, or hakim warrick or someone like that) and hope to get lucky with them turning out to be a franchise player (sort of like when indy traded for JO). a large part in my opinion of making the best team in the NBA is luck.

anyway I know my plans sound crude and hastily concocted but thats becuase I dont really feel like elaborating right now even though I think i could if i really tried. in fact im tired of using the computer.

[Edited by - slimpack on 02-02-2007 5:55 PM]
4949
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2/2/2007  5:51 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

Can it be done?

I say it all the time. I said it on a few other boards and been saying it for about two years now. The only way we can get better is to acquire superstar players who are either free agents, looking for some one else to play for, or who are not happy, who want to go somewhere else. REAL ones!

And the only way to do that is to wait, build up the money you accumilate, when contracts end and then make those offers when the timing is right. When the super stars become available. If we need to fill the 15 man roster, then do it with fairly good players, until we are in that position. Stop buying halfway good players for five year 20 million dollar contracts. Go after super stars! We most certainly have the money to do that, IF the brass can just wait for it all to line up. It's so simple.

We will 'never' build through the draft, nor will we be able to make these offers, not if the money is always going to be tied up in medicre players. We will never be able to trade either, because no one ever wants our players, not to mention, we'll only get what we give away.
I'll never trust this' team again.
bobs3304
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2/2/2007  6:02 PM
^ Do you think Jason Richardson can be a star?




[Edited by - bobs3304 on 02-02-2007 6:02 PM]

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 02-02-2007 6:12 PM]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
bobs3304
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2/2/2007  6:14 PM
Curry
(PJ Brown/Dale Davis type)
Jefferies/Balkman
Jason Richardson
Marbury


That's a team I think can work with Curry here.

DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
bobs3304
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2/2/2007  6:15 PM
Crawford/Q. Richadson/David Lee/Jerome James

for

Jason Richardson/Stephen Jackson(Marbury's friends with him)/A. Foyle



[Edited by - bobs3304 on 02-02-2007 6:17 PM]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Anji
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2/2/2007  7:20 PM

Why would you want to take on JRichardson???? Hasn't he played in less games then Q the last two seasons???
David Lee>>>>> PJ Brown/Dale Davis type

Why do we need to do anything??? Ya'll want Isiah out correct??? Fastest way is if he does nothing. I personally don't care either way.
Grow Curry, Grow Lee, Grow Frye, Grow Balkman, Grown Nate, Grow Colins.
In the mean while Maximize Crawford, Maximize Q, Maximize Marbury.
Draft players who could be their replacements this year and next.
Next trade deadline try to move Marbury/Q/Crawford for a starter that we want.
Try to Frye for big time prospects at any time, if not don't trade him for crap.
24 is the average age of the players who are the knicks future, they do not have to do anything right now.
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
bobs3304
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2/2/2007  7:24 PM
Posted by Anji:


Why would you want to take on JRichardson???? Hasn't he played in less games then Q the last two seasons???

this season yes.
David Lee>>>>> PJ Brown/Dale Davis type

Uhhh, no.

DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
BasketballJones
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2/2/2007  7:54 PM
First of all, Layden's gotta go. Then we get rid of Eisley, Anderson, & Weatherspoon. After that, it's nothing but blue skies.
https:// It's not so hard.
Michael6835
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2/3/2007  11:24 AM
They need a shot blocking forward, one that knows how to play D. Can Frye be the shot blocker and defend, paired with his jumpshot that would be perfect. If Dlee develops a short jumpshot, he is the guy.

Role players, they need a nice pg coming off the bench to train under marbury, so when he leaves we're set. Maybe trade Nate for that player.

Pure Shooter, we need to aquire a pure shooter, not many of the streak shooters, but someone we can close our eyes and know the ball is going in. Some one with Steve kerr's % or Mark Price %. I like Q if he can stay healthy.

Don't add $$ unless it is bonafide superstar. Dolan needs to be a bit more strict with the MLE this year, we tend to just give these away for players who dont perform (I think Jackie Butler, would have been more productive than JJ and far cheaper)

Eddy Curry- I love this guy's game and what the future holds for him and us. I know he has to work on the other parts, but I think he gets it, he realizes how great he can be if he just lost a bit more weight and hustled more. Max Kellerman said it best on his show last week. You have a stud center that everyone has been waiting for him to show signs that he is going to be great, and when he finally starts to show signs of improvement thats when we want to get rid of him. Eddie will be integral to the knicks winning a championship in the future. We can't do it with him alone, but couple him with a superstar and we are there.

Isaih Thomas - I like him as the coach, he does a decent job. As a GM, goinng forward lets hope he has seen the light and learned from his past mistakes. No trades this year and know stupid MLE signings in the offseason.
M
bobs3304
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2/3/2007  2:14 PM
I like Max Kellerman, he was better than that Joey Watshiface that replaced him on Around the Horn.


Anyway, I was thinkin about it last night, and I came to the conclusion that we'll never win with Curry b/c this very simple fact:


HE IS NOT (and never will be) A FRANCHISE PLAYER.


Now I know that doesn't sound like it resonates, or means anything, caz hey -- he's this dominant offensive Center right? 24 years old. All that jazz.

But when you look at the history of championship teams not named the Bulls -- they all had big men that were dominant on both sides of the court.

Hell, forget championships, let's just look at solid playoff teams (caz let's face it, all us Knick fans really want is some hope after all ).

The Kings had Webber, who sucked on defense, but could do EVERYTHING on offense, and he was their leader. He was a Hall of Fame talent.

Not only that but they had a perfectly run system. Alot of Princeton offense going on there.


We on the other hand, are relying on a guy who can't pass, can't play defense, and can't rebound.

Don't you think that's alot stacked against him?

PLUS we don't even have a legit system in place.

In order to make the playoffs you need a franchise player.......that.....OR THE BEST DEFENSE IN YOUR CONFERENCE. (think Bulls/Pistons).

We could that route, but don't have the personell, not even close.


Curry could play a nice 2nd fiddle to a legit star, but getting those are next to impossible.

Why not just pawn off Curry with one of our bad contracts for a nice player like Josh Smith, plus a pick, and some cap space?
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Finestrg
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2/3/2007  4:39 PM
Bobs, just to clarify, what I'm saying is that I think the Knicks organization believes Curry is the right guy to build around. Do I believe that? Not necessarily, but it doesn't really matter what I think. They made the big trade for him. They've put all their eggs in his basket. He's here to stay. I don't think they're ever trading him unless they get an offer that'll blow them out of the water - AND THEY'LL NEVER GET THAT for an assortment of reasons (Isiah's not the most well liked guy around the NBA, Eddy has holes in his game, Eddy has a heart condition, etc...). So moving forward, this is the corner of the franchise, like it or not. So recognizing that that's how the organization apparently feels, I want them to now surround the big fella with the best possible talent to get the job done and become competitive again. And right now, with Curry firmly in place, it's so obvious that this is not a good mix. BTW, I don't hate Curry. His lack of rebounding and defense at that size will always bother me, but he has made some strides and for that I'm happy for him, Isiah and the Knicks.

Regarding Armstrong, I've seen the kid play for U-Conn. I'd say a good 30 times over his 4 years there and I think, rather I know, he can play. I think he can be much, much more than just some part-time "shotblocker off the bench." A comment like that is really selling this kid short dude, not for nothin'. Hilton was the Big East defensive player of the year last year. Think about that for a second. We're not talkin' the Missouri Valley Conference here, we're talkin' the Big East. Great teams. Tough schedule. Going up against tremendous competition every game. An achievement like that speaks volumes, I'm sorry. I actually remember one game against Villanova at Gample Pavillion last season where there was a play where someone (pretty sure it was Kyle Lowry) was taking the ball to the rim right down the middle and as he's coming Armstrong gets knocked to the floor. Instead of giving up on the play, Armstrong springs up off the floor and in the air for one hell of a block. It all went down so quick, in about 2-3 seconds. I TiVoed that game and rewound that play about 5 times in a row - I was so amazed! Honestly, it was one of the best defensive plays I ever remember watching! That's really when I knew this kid was special. At this point, all he needs to do is hit the weight room a little and build up his body and stamina - prepare to start playing 30/35 mins. per over an 82-game schedule. When he builds up his strength and skill level to the point where he's ready to go 30-35 mins a night, he's at least 10-15 pts/10 rebs. and 3 blocks per game. Easily.

And when I say "splashy" moves I mean moves involving big names and/or big money contracts coming and going. Trades for Pietrus and Armstrong (both young and definitely not your typical household names, not yet anyway - two guys making little money at this point) and the two D-league signings of Amundson and Rodgers hardly qualify as splashy. They're sensible and fiscally reponsible. The type of low-risk/high-reward moves we should be looking into instead of signing guys like Jeffries to full mid-level exception deals when we already drafted a guy just like him (better in fact) in Balkman.

Bottom line is I want them to pull of all 4 moves I came up with. Pietrus can be a star, maybe not a first team all-NBAer, but a star on the same level as, say, Josh Howard. All he needs is PT and touches. If he gets 35 mins. a night, 15+ shot attempts a night and the same freedom that Crawford gets he's an All-Star in the Eastern Conference for the Knicks. Plus, as a bonus, he actually appears to have a great personality - he always seems to be laughing, joking around - generally a good dude - a guy that feels completely at home in front of the camera or the tape recorder with the media. So rare for a foreign player. NY would fall in love with this guy, trust me. He's worth trading David Lee for.

And listen, I realize it's kind of taboo around here to even hint at the idea of trading Lee but you gotta give to receive in this league. And yes King1, it is possible to replace David Lee with a rookie and a D-league player. In fact, a combination of Hilton Armstrong (shotblocking/rebounding/some scoring even out as far as 20 feet from the rim) and Louis Amundson (hustle/rebounding/energy/some interior scoring) more than makes up for what Lee provides - and Lee provides a lot, no doubt. I love Lee. I even like Frye a little too. Never said I didn't. I just would love Pietrus, Armstrong, Amundson and Chris Rodgers a whole lot more, that's all.

Speaking of Rodgers, we all keep talkin' about a defensive stopper, especially in the backcourt - a guy who can come in and really guard the perimeter. And that's where this guy comes in.

I will defend these 4 players to the death. They are exactly what we need.

P.S. - No, I don't have AOL AIM Bobs. But when I install it, I'll let you know. Would love to chat hoops with you anytime partna!!!
bobs3304
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2/3/2007  5:00 PM
You really sound like you got your perogatives in check mate.




I think I'll grudgingly agree with you -- Curry is probably never gonna get traded for a host of reasons.... Dolan being one of them.

He'll probly put a stipulation on the next GM that he can't trade Curry; just like he did with the trade for Marbury.


If Armstrong is as strong a rebounder as you say, I'd love to entertain a trade for him.

What we need is a Udonis Haslem type, maybe with better shotblocking instincts.

We need a dog in the paint, a guy that's gonna energize the team and hold the paint down when Curry has his lapses.


We need to trade Crawford though. If not Curry, then him. People always say trade Frye or Curry, and I kind of disagree. Frye is certainly expendable too, but only b/c he's just not as good as advertised.

Crawford is to the backcourt what Curry is to the froncourt. Keep 1 and move on.

Speaking of Pietrus, he's a dog on defense too, from what I hear.


Anyway, I pray Isiah gets canned, b/c he has no clue whatsoever how to build a team. He's a good scout of talent, and a good motivator, but that's about it.

He's not management material.


We need someone who won't overspend and can find diamonds in the rough (like a Pietrus).


Btw, my sn on AIM is spongebobs3304 if you ever happen to download it.

Wouldn't mind chattin up some hoops with you either guy.



[Edited by - bobs3304 on 02-03-2007 5:01 PM]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
bobs3304
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2/3/2007  5:04 PM
Btw I'm straight.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
4949
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2/4/2007  2:02 PM
Posted by Michael6835:

They need a shot blocking forward, one that knows how to play D. Can Frye be the shot blocker and defend, paired with his jumpshot that would be perfect. If Dlee develops a short jumpshot, he is the guy.

Jeffries was supposed to come here and increase our defense. So far he hasn't really been that much of an impact player there. Defense is our bad spot. We have virtually no defense. We are averaging just over 99 points a game as a team, but the opponents are averaging just over 102 against us. We need D very badly.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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2/4/2007  2:06 PM
HE IS NOT (and never will be) A FRANCHISE PLAYER.


Now I know that doesn't sound like it resonates, or means anything, caz hey -- he's this dominant offensive Center right? 24 years old. All that jazz.

I wouldn't call him franchise or dominate, but he's not exactly a bum either. Curry's very effective in some ways, as a big man and clearly' needs to improve on the defensive and rebounding end.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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2/4/2007  2:09 PM
Also like to add that if we make the playoffs, it's not going to be on the shoulder's of Curry, but will have to be as a team. That's the only way we can make it to at least .500 at this point in the season. Unless of course something significant happens, like Curry develops some quick defensive skills and can block a few more shots.
I'll never trust this' team again.
bobs3304
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2/4/2007  3:23 PM
^ Well the playoffs is all about matchups too.

If we catch a team off guard we can make it deep.

But I think realistically Curry will not be traded, and he'll end up being a 22 & 8 Center, with decent passing, good man defense, and decent weakside shotblocking.

An All-Star, yes, (after this year Shaq's done), but not a franchise player or superstar.


But hey, on the plus side.....

Didn't we get to the finals with only Houston and Spree?

DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
JrZyHuStLa
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2/4/2007  4:38 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by JrZyHuStLa:
Posted by islesfan:

Fire Isiah, Hire a competent GM and start from there.

This mess is much bigger than the one Isiah inherited with no expiring contracts, few #1 picks and being much further over the cap but it can be done.

We need Kiki...

He drafted Tskitishvili and Nene over Amare and Bulter.

No thanks.

You don't hire/fire a GM for their draft picks. Look at Isiah, the guy has an eye for talent but that's it.

You want to not hire Kiki because he drafted some bums, but built a solid nuggets team ?

No thanks.
4949
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2/5/2007  12:54 AM
Posted by bobs3304:

^ Well the playoffs is all about matchups too.

If we catch a team off guard we can make it deep.

But I think realistically Curry will not be traded, and he'll end up being a 22 & 8 Center, with decent passing, good man defense, and decent weakside shotblocking.

An All-Star, yes, (after this year Shaq's done), but not a franchise player or superstar.


But hey, on the plus side.....

Didn't we get to the finals with only Houston and Spree?


We got real lucky making it to the big show that year, only to have a real NBA team shut us down. Remember, Houston 'got the bounce' and no one expected Spree to be so quick. Duncan was just to dominating. We had Camby man, but he was too skinny.

Truth be told, I'd rather be a legitimate contender, then to have a free ride to the big show (like the bears had tonight).
I'll never trust this' team again.
Fixing the Franchise -- Can It Be Done.....REALISTICALLY?

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