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Ariza trade set other moves in motion...NY Times
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fishmike
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2/2/2007  10:27 AM
Posted by babyKnicks:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by TheGame:
I am not sure who I blame more, Larry for requesting the move knowing it would not work, or IT for going along with the trade when he probably had serious doubts it would work also.
Let me help you with this. The person to blame is Isiah because he and only he had the authority to make such a transaction. Its also consistant with other trades Isiah has made, very consistant.

I disagree with you 100%.
your allowed to be wrong. Knicks have only had one GM for the last 3 years. Its not debatable.

Who's responsible for Iraq? Some general that said "we should invade." Or the guy in charge with the final say that said "lets invade."

Wake up dude... GM = all final say.

Anyway, Isiah would *never* trade for a former "star" with a bad contract right? That pattern only happened after Larry Brown took over for a year and forced Isiah to make a bunch of bad trades
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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fishmike
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2/2/2007  10:30 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

yup... easily Isiah's worst move (there are so many to choose from)

If I could have anyone back it would be that one... no brainer

I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic. (It's hard to tell over the internet!). I'd undo the Curry and Marbury trades well before that one.
Like I said... so many to choose from

At least the Curry and Marbury trades yielded productive players. They were bad, but those guys have played and contributed. Francis cost us a cheap young player and clogged our roster before crapping out totally

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TheGame
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2/2/2007  10:52 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by TheGame:
I am not sure who I blame more, Larry for requesting the move knowing it would not work, or IT for going along with the trade when he probably had serious doubts it would work also.
Let me help you with this. The person to blame is Isiah because he and only he had the authority to make such a transaction. Its also consistant with other trades Isiah has made, very consistant.

I understand IT is ultimately responsible for everything that happens with the team. However, my point is that IT went ahead with the trade because he thought the great LB was sincerely going to make it work and he was supporting his coach. That might have been niave, but when you pay a guy $50 million, I don't think it is too much to expect some level of honesty and loyalty, which LB clearly did not possess. So, while IT should have never done the trade, I still blame LB more for requesting it when he had no intention of making it work.

In any event, the point is that move really set us back because it likely cost us Williams (potentially our PG of the future) and stuck us with Francise's virtually untradeable salary and contributed to the decision to sign Jeffries, which was another horrible move. IT needs to learn that you don't pay $30 million for a B-level player when you can sign a C-level player for $3 million. If IT ever learns this lesson, I think he would be on his way to being a decent GM because he is a solid drafter.

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nyk4ever
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2/2/2007  10:59 AM
As DJ said earlier in this thread. If Isiah wanted Ariza back so bad he could have offered him the MLE, which he did not.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
bigbeast
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2/2/2007  11:00 AM
Posted by TheGame:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by TheGame:
I am not sure who I blame more, Larry for requesting the move knowing it would not work, or IT for going along with the trade when he probably had serious doubts it would work also.
Let me help you with this. The person to blame is Isiah because he and only he had the authority to make such a transaction. Its also consistant with other trades Isiah has made, very consistant.

I understand IT is ultimately responsible for everything that happens with the team. However, my point is that IT went ahead with the trade because he thought the great LB was sincerely going to make it work and he was supporting his coach. That might have been niave, but when you pay a guy $50 million, I don't think it is too much to expect some level of honesty and loyalty, which LB clearly did not possess. So, while IT should have never done the trade, I still blame LB more for requesting it when he had no intention of making it work.

In any event, the point is that move really set us back because it likely cost us Williams (potentially our PG of the future) and stuck us with Francise's virtually untradeable salary and contributed to the decision to sign Jeffries, which was another horrible move. IT needs to learn that you don't pay $30 million for a B-level player when you can sign a C-level player for $3 million. If IT ever learns this lesson, I think he would be on his way to being a decent GM because he is a solid drafter.


Game- your spitting in the wind man. I've been down this road more than several times but you have to understand, Brown is the teflon-Don on this board to some and is exempt from everything bad about this team. Of course this trade doesn't go down if Brown doesn't beg for the deal "I'm dying here".

If you remember, Isiah went to bat for Brown a few weeks before the trade by saying to the players "its Browns way or the highway" (paraphrasing.) Isiah even said during the press conference that introduced francis that "Its so crazy that it might work." Wow what a ringing endorsement. Isiah put his trust in a hallfame coach that he could somehow make it work. And we all know how that turned out....
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
martin
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2/2/2007  11:02 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:

As DJ said earlier in this thread. If Isiah wanted Ariza back so bad he could have offered him the MLE, which he did not.

If Isiah wanted Ariza so bad the trade would have been Penny for Francis straight up.
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nyk4ever
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2/2/2007  11:02 AM
Posted by bigbeast:



If you remember, Isiah went to bat for Brown a few weeks before the trade by saying to the players "its Browns way or the highway" (paraphrasing.) Isiah even said during the press conference that introduced francis that "Its so crazy that it might work." Wow what a ringing endorsement. Isiah put his trust in a hallfame coach that he could somehow make it work. And we all know how that turned out....

Wow that is some pretty concrete evidence you're bringing to the table there!
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
bigbeast
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2/2/2007  11:02 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:

As DJ said earlier in this thread. If Isiah wanted Ariza back so bad he could have offered him the MLE, which he did not.

Signing Ariza doesn't remove Francis' contract from this team.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
nyk4ever
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2/2/2007  11:05 AM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by nyk4ever:

As DJ said earlier in this thread. If Isiah wanted Ariza back so bad he could have offered him the MLE, which he did not.

Signing Ariza doesn't remove Francis' contract from this team.

Obviously. The point is, everyone is making such a big deal about Ariza being traded and placing ALL blame squarely on one guy, when infact it was the GM who has the authority to make trades and could have resigned Ariza last summer if he liked him so much.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
MS
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2/2/2007  11:07 AM
It potential shouldn't have cost us our pg of the future you had Williams and Lowry (who i would rather have then crawford) you draft the player. Steph and Steve are up in three years, Crawford is a - on the court and nate should be moved for something useful because with this bunch i don't know if he can be. you need smart players out there and we have one david lee....

When you ask if Isiah is a good drafter ask yourself this question he has had 6 picks in his tenure with the team, how many would you realistically want again.

Ariza and Lee, and Balkman if you pick him at 29 not 20, so the only thing isiah does well is draft role players, credit needs to end, blaming Larry, injuries, free throw shooting, etc needs to stop, he built the team, ****ed the future, doesn't teach anything except free lancing and confidence and when you have a team of immature superstars in their own minds that doesn't work
PresIke
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2/2/2007  11:11 AM
The part of the article holfresh put in bold is generally a fair criticism of Isiah/The Knicks/(Brown?), I believe. Even those that are supportive of Isiah would admit this, I hope.

However, at the time Ariza was not playing well, and his offensive game was terrible, and not looking like something that would improve that drastically. Not only that but his defensive ability had seemed to regress. But, as I have said of other young Knicks, that sometimes growing pains are natural. Was Brown's treatment of Trevor part of the problem and cause for Ariza to be traded? Since this seems likely this is more reason to suggest that it seems a bit unfair to say that this is ALL Isiah's fault. In the end he's the one who makes the deal, but Brown seemed to play some role.

Who knew that Francis' problem would end up not being so much of being a malcontent but a seemingly rapid decline in physical ability (if true)? I don't think that was most people's concern about Stevie when he was traded for. Sure, was his sub-par play related to he and Marbury being "redundant" as the critics ave suggested? Maybe, but I wonder if it's more physical than anything else.

I agree with those who have said we should have taken Marcus Williams with our first pick and hoped Balkman would be there at 29. Even if he didn't play, would it really have been a problem to have him chill on the bench for a few seasons? I guess insulting Marbury/Francis was a concern, as was Williams' defensive ability, which we needed to improve as a team, but the Francis-Ariza trade is one of the more recent lingering questions, in terms of its effect on moves Isiah made on draft day this past summer.

[Edited by - PresIke on 02-02-2007 11:12 AM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
bigbeast
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2/2/2007  11:12 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by bigbeast:



If you remember, Isiah went to bat for Brown a few weeks before the trade by saying to the players "its Browns way or the highway" (paraphrasing.) Isiah even said during the press conference that introduced francis that "Its so crazy that it might work." Wow what a ringing endorsement. Isiah put his trust in a hallfame coach that he could somehow make it work. And we all know how that turned out....

Wow that is some pretty concrete evidence you're bringing to the table there!

Please....you know the quotes as well as everyone here....no need for me to go digging up direct quotes...We've been over this how many times....
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
fishmike
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2/2/2007  11:16 AM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by TheGame:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by TheGame:
I am not sure who I blame more, Larry for requesting the move knowing it would not work, or IT for going along with the trade when he probably had serious doubts it would work also.
Let me help you with this. The person to blame is Isiah because he and only he had the authority to make such a transaction. Its also consistant with other trades Isiah has made, very consistant.

I understand IT is ultimately responsible for everything that happens with the team. However, my point is that IT went ahead with the trade because he thought the great LB was sincerely going to make it work and he was supporting his coach. That might have been niave, but when you pay a guy $50 million, I don't think it is too much to expect some level of honesty and loyalty, which LB clearly did not possess. So, while IT should have never done the trade, I still blame LB more for requesting it when he had no intention of making it work.

In any event, the point is that move really set us back because it likely cost us Williams (potentially our PG of the future) and stuck us with Francise's virtually untradeable salary and contributed to the decision to sign Jeffries, which was another horrible move. IT needs to learn that you don't pay $30 million for a B-level player when you can sign a C-level player for $3 million. If IT ever learns this lesson, I think he would be on his way to being a decent GM because he is a solid drafter.


Game- your spitting in the wind man. I've been down this road more than several times but you have to understand, Brown is the teflon-Don on this board to some and is exempt from everything bad about this team. Of course this trade doesn't go down if Brown doesn't beg for the deal "I'm dying here".

If you remember, Isiah went to bat for Brown a few weeks before the trade by saying to the players "its Browns way or the highway" (paraphrasing.) Isiah even said during the press conference that introduced francis that "Its so crazy that it might work." Wow what a ringing endorsement. Isiah put his trust in a hallfame coach that he could somehow make it work. And we all know how that turned out....
Brown sucked with us... he was bad in just about every facet. However blaming him for bad moves the GM made is silly. Find me a guy on this site that says Larry did a good job. I have said things like Isiah is now realizing what Larry went through, but thats about it.

Game.. back to the original point about Isiah making the trade to "support his coach."

I would give you that except this exact thing has come up before.

Before Isiah traded KVH and Doleac for Fugazy and Nazr he called Lenny Wilkins and talked to him about the trade. Now keep in mind the Knicks were finally turning around that season, were playing good ball and were winning games. Lenny point blank said please do NOT make that trade. The reason he gave was simple. He said he had KVH and Doleac playing very well, and the team meshing as a unit.

Isiah made a lateral trade against his HOF coach's wishes, and it cost us games. We had a nice synergy with Marbury's penetration and KVH, Doleac and Kurt's ability to nail the long jumper. That was the best *team* we had since Isiah has been here.

This is Isiah's pattern. I dont care what Larry said, wanted or asked. This has nothing to with him.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
islesfan
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2/2/2007  11:37 AM
It's official. Howard Beck is one of Isiah's guys.

I've thought it for awhile but this pretty much confirms it.

Blaming Larry Brown for things that happened even after he was fired. That takes the cake. Why is that the epicenter? Why isn't hiring Lenny the epicenter for all the bad moves made by Isiah? Or what about hiring Isiah which is really where all the bad moves originated?
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TrueBlue
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2/2/2007  12:27 PM
Isn't interesting that Crawford and Mo were offered up for Francis? I believe Crawford and Mo were going to be offered for K-Mart also.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 02-02-2007 11:28 AM]
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2/2/2007  12:38 PM
I really like ariza, but more than losing him, is getting francis that I hate the most. Balkman IMO can be as good if not a better player than ariza, his skills seem to be better at this point and they are the same age.. But getting francis who is useless now, is painful....
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TrueBlue
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2/2/2007  12:41 PM
Posted by tkf:

I really like ariza, but more than losing him, is getting francis that I hate the most. Balkman IMO can be as good if not a better player than ariza, his skills seem to be better at this point and they are the same age.. But getting francis who is useless now, is painful....


The article exposes Zeke and not LB IMO. Larry may have wanted Francis but that doesn't mean he had to offer up Ariza. Smith said Zeke was being tough and that's what a GM is supposed to do, maintain his stand but as usual Zeke caves in to make a stupid move.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
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2/2/2007  1:04 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by TheGame:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by TheGame:
I am not sure who I blame more, Larry for requesting the move knowing it would not work, or IT for going along with the trade when he probably had serious doubts it would work also.
Let me help you with this. The person to blame is Isiah because he and only he had the authority to make such a transaction. Its also consistant with other trades Isiah has made, very consistant.

I understand IT is ultimately responsible for everything that happens with the team. However, my point is that IT went ahead with the trade because he thought the great LB was sincerely going to make it work and he was supporting his coach. That might have been niave, but when you pay a guy $50 million, I don't think it is too much to expect some level of honesty and loyalty, which LB clearly did not possess. So, while IT should have never done the trade, I still blame LB more for requesting it when he had no intention of making it work.

In any event, the point is that move really set us back because it likely cost us Williams (potentially our PG of the future) and stuck us with Francise's virtually untradeable salary and contributed to the decision to sign Jeffries, which was another horrible move. IT needs to learn that you don't pay $30 million for a B-level player when you can sign a C-level player for $3 million. If IT ever learns this lesson, I think he would be on his way to being a decent GM because he is a solid drafter.


Game- your spitting in the wind man. I've been down this road more than several times but you have to understand, Brown is the teflon-Don on this board to some and is exempt from everything bad about this team. Of course this trade doesn't go down if Brown doesn't beg for the deal "I'm dying here".

If you remember, Isiah went to bat for Brown a few weeks before the trade by saying to the players "its Browns way or the highway" (paraphrasing.) Isiah even said during the press conference that introduced francis that "Its so crazy that it might work." Wow what a ringing endorsement. Isiah put his trust in a hallfame coach that he could somehow make it work. And we all know how that turned out....
Brown sucked with us... he was bad in just about every facet. However blaming him for bad moves the GM made is silly. Find me a guy on this site that says Larry did a good job. I have said things like Isiah is now realizing what Larry went through, but thats about it.

Game.. back to the original point about Isiah making the trade to "support his coach."

I would give you that except this exact thing has come up before.

Before Isiah traded KVH and Doleac for Fugazy and Nazr he called Lenny Wilkins and talked to him about the trade. Now keep in mind the Knicks were finally turning around that season, were playing good ball and were winning games. Lenny point blank said please do NOT make that trade. The reason he gave was simple. He said he had KVH and Doleac playing very well, and the team meshing as a unit.

Isiah made a lateral trade against his HOF coach's wishes, and it cost us games. We had a nice synergy with Marbury's penetration and KVH, Doleac and Kurt's ability to nail the long jumper. That was the best *team* we had since Isiah has been here.

This is Isiah's pattern. I dont care what Larry said, wanted or asked. This has nothing to with him.

How is it you guys are able to talk through both sides of your collective mouths on this one...How many Larry lovers here were quoting Parcells...You want LB to do the cooking but you wont allow him to buy the groceries...I remember battling with 80 percent of this forum about this...Where are they now???...Man Up!!!...Now you want to pretend that LB is not the reason why Ariza is in Orlando and Francis' contract is on this roster...Isn't that enough reason to fire that clown Larry Brown...Come on...MAN UP!!!!!!!
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2/2/2007  1:21 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/434359p-365958c.html

Isiah Thomas is exploring the possibility of reacquiring Trevor Ariza, a player Larry Brown referred to as "delusional."

Signing Ariza, a restricted free agent, appears to be a longshot, since Thomas drafted swingman Renaldo Balkman in the first round and has him under contract for three years. Ariza is a similar player - athletic forward with limited offensive skills. The Orlando Magic has the option to match any offer made to Ariza, 21, who is looking to make $3 million per season.

Thomas does have a soft spot for Ariza, who is the first player he drafted with the Knicks. The Knicks traded Ariza and Penny Hardaway to Orlando last February for Steve Francis. Ariza appeared in 21 games with the Magic and played well, averaging 4.7 points and 3.9 rebounds. He scored in double figures four times.

Ariza's agent, David Lee, told Florida Today that his client is "a jump shot away from being an All-Star." Brown, like most NBA coaches, had a different opinion on Ariza's ceiling. In 137 career games, Ariza is averaging 5.3 points and has made four of 18 three-pointers.

According to Lee, Sacramento, Houston and Denver have also expressed interest in Ariza. Teams can begin signing free agents today.


I for one would have been totally for signing Ariza instead of Jefferies and not drafting Balkman.
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nyk4ever
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2/2/2007  1:25 PM
Posted by holfresh:



How is it you guys are able to talk through both sides of your collective mouths on this one...How many Larry lovers here were quoting Parcells...You want LB to do the cooking but you wont allow him to buy the groceries...I remember battling with 80 percent of this forum about this...Where are they now???...Man Up!!!...Now you want to pretend that LB is not the reason why Ariza is in Orlando and Francis' contract is on this roster...Isn't that enough reason to fire that clown Larry Brown...Come on...MAN UP!!!!!!!


So basically what you are saying is that because *we* said Larry should have personnel input, it was granted? Theres no doubt in my mind that Larry *should* have had player personnel input but didn't. If Larry was able to move players, he would have went for Ratliff, Snow, etc etc etc, but alas those guys were never acquired. This argument has been rehashed a million times over.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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Ariza trade set other moves in motion...NY Times
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