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OT: Attention Don Mattingly Fans
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djsunyc
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1/28/2007  9:00 PM
mattingly had 5 great years. great as in the best player in baseball. and he's my favorite ball player of all time...but that's not enough to get him in the HOF. there has to be standards and despite injury, 5 years is only 5 years and that's not enough.
AUTOADVERT
Rich
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1/28/2007  9:10 PM
Regarding the importance of a 1Bman's defense:

http://www.yesnetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061219&content_id=1416183&oid=36019&vkey=5
Pretty bad. Hitting can make up for a multitude of sins, especially at first base. There's a reason that first base has been the home of the immobile slugger going back to the days of Big Dan Brouthers. With most hitters being right-handed, grounders are often directed to the right side of the infield. On most plays the first baseman's job is to stay around the bag and receive the ball, so their opportunity to do real damage isn't the same as the shortstop's. Assuming that a first baseman fits the offensive profile of his position, if he lacks Keith Hernandez's ability to come in on a bunt or Don Mattingly's range in the hole he should still contribute enough with the bat to make his lack of defensive ability a minor concern

Jason Giambi stretches this argument because he's not even a good receiver. While he scoops the occasional low throw, his vertical leap is purely hypothetical, and most everything thrown over his head seems to get by. Plays off the bag don't happen. We're talking about a first baseman who is not just bad, but might possibly be the worst defensive first baseman in the game. His defense was so bad that it contributed to runs that cost the Yankees a total of one win over the cost of the season (remember, it's not easy to lay causality for a win or a loss at any one player's door; the best we can do is look at run elements and see how things add up over the course of a season to get a better understanding of a player's abilities). That doesn't sound like a lot, but keep in mind that Giambi played only 68 games at first.

Baseball Prospectus's WARP (Wins Above Replacement), which considers both offense and defense, says Giambi was worth about six wins above replacement to the Yankees last year. That includes the loss created by his defense. Had he played at first on a daily basis, his defense might have started to eat into his overall productivity. Giambi still would have been a net positive, but his overall value would have been severely reduced
fishmike
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1/28/2007  10:17 PM
I saw Dwight Evans quite a bit. He was a hell of a ball player. Always good. But nobody ever said 'hey... this is the best player in baseball right now.'

People said that about Don for 5 years.

Like I said... I'm OK with him not being in the hall. Injuries happen and thems the breaks. If he doesnt get hurt he's a first ballot. If he got hurt 3 years after he did he's still a first ballot. 5 years just isnt enough
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TheSage
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1/28/2007  10:34 PM
Most of you never saw Gil Hodges play first base. I acknowledge that Mattingly was a decent first baseman with limited range but Gil Hodges played like he invented the position. Until keith Hernandez came into baseball there was no one to compare to Gil. Top that off with seven straight years of over 100 RBI's. Before he was passed by Mays was the leading right hand home run hitter in baseball. 200 more rbi's than mattingly and 150 more hr's in and era less prone to the hr. So who deserves to in the HOF. Gil is there as a Manager.
fishmike
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1/28/2007  10:54 PM
"decent first baseman with limited range "

Please.. there's like 2-3 guys that are even regarded as being in the same class as DM who have played in the last 25 years.

Decent indeed
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TheSage
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1/28/2007  11:01 PM
Mattingly wasn't even the best defensive first baseman of his own era-that honor belongs to keith hernandez.
Rich
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1/28/2007  11:02 PM
It doesn't matter. First basemen aren't selected to the HoF on the basis of their defense.
Stevo718
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1/29/2007  1:04 AM
Donnie Baseball in his prime was a triple crown threat every year. It's so sad that the Yanks won the year after he retired.
Rich
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1/29/2007  2:07 AM
They will win several WS championships when he is the manager.
fishmike
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1/29/2007  11:04 AM
Posted by Rich:

It doesn't matter. First basemen aren't selected to the HoF on the basis of their defense.
nobody does. Closest would probably be Ozzie Smith who was perhaps the best defender ever (certainly of my generation), and even he was no Rey Ordonez... he handled the bat well, stole a lot of bases and was regarded as a good hitter in the clutch.

Keith didnt have Mattingly's arm. He had better range but not by much. Thats a Met fan talking
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TMS
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1/29/2007  8:29 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

mattingly had 5 great years. great as in the best player in baseball. and he's my favorite ball player of all time...but that's not enough to get him in the HOF. there has to be standards and despite injury, 5 years is only 5 years and that's not enough.

Gayle Sayers is in the NFL HOF after playing only 7 years in the NFL, only 5 of which were of any good standing stat wise... in fact, if you compare his stats to some of the players today, all purpose yardage doesn't seem all that eye popping worthy of greatest player of alltime type status... but he makes Canton because he was an icon of the time that he played the game & was a pioneer of his position before guys like Marshall Faulk, Reggie Bush & Tiki Barber were ever born...

the same type of recognition needs to go to Don Mattingly IMO... he's not just ANY player... if not for that injury that shortened his career we're talking 1st ballot HOFer all the way.

[Edited by - TMS on 01-29-2007 8:33 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
12stepPivot
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1/29/2007  9:17 PM
Argeed down the line of this thread, Don provided some of my fondest memories of that era. There is no one who wouldn't agree that he is of HOF stock. I wouldn't hold my breath though, remember, there are a lot of writers who felt Jeter wasn't the MVP this year. Still breaks my heart.

Donnie will be one motivated manager though...
islesfan
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1/29/2007  11:08 PM
I'd take any of Mattingly's best 5 years over a compilation of Eddie Murray's career year in HR's, RBI, SLG, Hits, AVG, Field PCT and any other stat you can think of.

Murray was a compiler while Donnie was actually great, albeit for a short period of time.

But Murray is a no brainer while Donnie isn't close to making it. Go figure.

[Edited by - islesfan on 01-29-2007 11:14 PM]
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
OT: Attention Don Mattingly Fans

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