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we have to many stupid basketball players
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misterearl
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1/25/2007  10:40 AM
Briggs - the proper word is STILL "too"

Trust me on this

You have a yardstick for measuring basketball IQ that places David Lee far and above evryone else on the Knicks roster?

I'm just curious
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tkf
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1/25/2007  10:44 AM
I tend to agree with Briggs and blue seats here: When you look at lee, he seems to have a clue on whats going on out there, how to use his skill and position himself to be effective. I think balkman is similar to lee, but he is just inexperienced. Classic example, I was watching the game with my son, and i Tivo the game so I can pause and show my son some mistakes the knicks made. On a break the knicks were on defense, now the suns had 3 guys below the FT line, nash had the ball, amare went down low and marion was in the corner, now balkman who was guarding James jones, ran down court and ran right to the basket, terrible mistake, remember you must see your man and see the ball, James jones if you know your opponent, never runs to the hoop on a break, instead he stops at the three point line, balkman is too far downcourt can't recover, james is open for a wide open three. these things happen too much..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
BlueSeats
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1/25/2007  10:47 AM
Posted by TheGame:
Posted by BlueSeats:

With a lot of the better teams quick decision making is evident. You know, like when guys get a rebound they quickly get it to the right guy, or touch passes into the interior, or getting a steal and quickly pushing it up-court to the runner.

It's so rare to see that on our team. Our guys hold the ball and look around, they wait for the defense to set rather than imposing their will, they go one-on-one in traffic etc.

When one speaks of IQ it suggests intelligence, which probably isn't accurate, it's closer to an intuitiveness that is lacking. Lee is the one guy who does seem to make fast decisions, like he knows what he'll do with the ball before he gets it, otherwise his read upon getting the ball is extremely fast.

But who else on this squad can that be said about? Q might be the next best in that regard, then I think it falls off dramatically.


One of the problems is that we have too many players that deserve PT and we still don't have clearly defined roles. Obviously, the situation is better than last year, but the coaching staff needs to decide exactly what they want each player to do and then train them to do it. Other teams like the Suns and Dallas have heady players but they also have defined roles and systems so everyone knows what everyone else is supposed to do. Our players are still trying to figure things out, which happens with a young team that has alot of players still trying to develop their games and find out what they can and cannot do. That is why I don't buy into the blanket statement that the guys on this team don't have a high bb iq. I think with practice, effort, and good coaching, several players on this team can turn into very intelligent basketball players. What we need is stability and a tight 8 man rotation.


Yeah but it's the difference between being able to learn vs having good intuition.

Even retarded people can learn how to care for themselves with enough practice and education, but they're starting out from behind the 8-ball. Likewise, Eddy Curry may someday come to pass as well as Patrick Ewing, but he'll never be Hakeem. Crawford looked like he was making decision making strides last year, but seems to have forgotten it all this year, and he should be in his prime about now.

I understand guys can get better as they go, but we have to stop expect radical turnarounds in guys games. Guys like Ariza, Lee, Jeffries may never develop a reliable jumper. Eddy may never learn to play D. Marbury may never become clutch. If all one expects are some modest improvements here and there I have no problem with that, but I also thing one can get a good idea of a guys skill set and intuitive ability pretty early on.
Andrew
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1/25/2007  10:48 AM
misterearl, who are you the spelling and grammar police?
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tkf
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1/25/2007  10:54 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by TheGame:
Posted by BlueSeats:

With a lot of the better teams quick decision making is evident. You know, like when guys get a rebound they quickly get it to the right guy, or touch passes into the interior, or getting a steal and quickly pushing it up-court to the runner.

It's so rare to see that on our team. Our guys hold the ball and look around, they wait for the defense to set rather than imposing their will, they go one-on-one in traffic etc.

When one speaks of IQ it suggests intelligence, which probably isn't accurate, it's closer to an intuitiveness that is lacking. Lee is the one guy who does seem to make fast decisions, like he knows what he'll do with the ball before he gets it, otherwise his read upon getting the ball is extremely fast.

But who else on this squad can that be said about? Q might be the next best in that regard, then I think it falls off dramatically.


One of the problems is that we have too many players that deserve PT and we still don't have clearly defined roles. Obviously, the situation is better than last year, but the coaching staff needs to decide exactly what they want each player to do and then train them to do it. Other teams like the Suns and Dallas have heady players but they also have defined roles and systems so everyone knows what everyone else is supposed to do. Our players are still trying to figure things out, which happens with a young team that has alot of players still trying to develop their games and find out what they can and cannot do. That is why I don't buy into the blanket statement that the guys on this team don't have a high bb iq. I think with practice, effort, and good coaching, several players on this team can turn into very intelligent basketball players. What we need is stability and a tight 8 man rotation.


Yeah but it's the difference between being able to learn vs having good intuition.

Even retarded people can learn how to care for themselves with enough practice and education, but they're starting out from behind the 8-ball. Likewise, Eddy Curry may someday come to pass as well as Patrick Ewing, but he'll never be Hakeem. Crawford looked like he was making decision making strides last year, but seems to have forgotten it all this year, and he should be in his prime about now.

I understand guys can get better as they go, but we have to stop expect radical turnarounds in guys games. Guys like Ariza, Lee, Jeffries may never develop a reliable jumper. Eddy may never learn to play D. Marbury may never become clutch. If all one expects are some modest improvements here and there I have no problem with that, but I also thing one can get a good idea of a guys skill set and intuitive ability pretty early on.

I agree, I was watching Brandon roy the other night with the blazers, I was bored so I watched the game, and he was hitting big shot after big shot, he made some really nice veteran moves, I think you can see early on with some players, like roy, that they are going to have a hell of a good skill set, early on..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
VDesai
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1/25/2007  10:58 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by VDesai:

I think Steph has a tremendous bball IQ, but has an agenda about how he wants to play. But the guy is a natural.


I don't know about that. Why did he have to struggle so many years to find his game in the flow of an offense? Remember all the games he'd play one style for one half and another for the other? What about the years of not knowing how to fight over a screen? And do you really trust his decision making and clock management in the waning moments of close games?


I think if you define the bball IQ by instinctual/intuitiveness as you described earlier, when Marbury's playing his game he's constantly making split second, intuitive plays. Whether its a quick shuffle step to blow by his opponent, instinctually throwing up a shot when he feels contact, drawing contact, hitting the right angles on the backboard to finish, throwing no look passes in the lane...I think he's great at this type of play. I always see him as playing with an "agenda," though. Doesn't always trust his teammates. Gets a directive from a coach and takes it as insult...overdoes it one way or another to prove a point. I think he's a completely natural basketball player but a stupid human being. I thought that was the line you were trying to draw in your post.

[Edited by - vdesai on 01-25-2007 11:11 AM]
Solace
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1/25/2007  11:04 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Solace - most of what is written is not worth quoting in its entirety

why waste the screen space?

Different keystrokes for different folks

I'm just busting your chops for pulling a typical misterearl.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
misterearl
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1/25/2007  11:18 AM
Q. misterearl, who are you the spelling and grammar police?

Andrew, it's a dirty job, but somebody gotta uphold the law.

Now, put down the keyboard and step away from the vehicle!
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Solace
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1/25/2007  11:19 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Q. misterearl, who are you the spelling and grammar police?

You could've quoted that.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
misterearl
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1/25/2007  11:20 AM
C'mon, you don't find it the least bit humorous that a person whon starts a thread about "stupid" basketball players doesn't know the proper usage of "to" as opposed to "too"?

you guys slay me
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franco12
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1/25/2007  11:40 AM
I'd agree that too many of our players aren't high BB IQ guys.

I'd put Marbury in the middle of the pack- he's great at getting into the lane- but he doesn't run the break well or set up players in a half court offense.

New system is part of the problem- for sure.

Frye & Jeffires are both lost out there- I don't think its a lack of BB IQ- its just a funk.

But- Lee is clearly, head and shoulders, more savvy than anyone else on this team.

Balkman is also up there- he had a nice drive last night when he was open on the 3pt line- he sprang into action and got a lay up- smart moves all the way- he doesn't do it enough- but given time, I think he'll get there.

I was arguing with fishmike's assessment that this team is composed of guys from loosing programs- my point is they are flawed players- and BB IQ is definitely a big time flaw.
BlueSeats
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1/25/2007  11:45 AM
Posted by VDesai:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by VDesai:

I think Steph has a tremendous bball IQ, but has an agenda about how he wants to play. But the guy is a natural.


I don't know about that. Why did he have to struggle so many years to find his game in the flow of an offense? Remember all the games he'd play one style for one half and another for the other? What about the years of not knowing how to fight over a screen? And do you really trust his decision making and clock management in the waning moments of close games?


I think if you define the bball IQ by instinctual/intuitiveness as you described earlier, when Marbury's playing his game he's constantly making split second, intuitive plays. Whether its a quick shuffle step to blow by his opponent, instinctually throwing up a shot when he feels contact, drawing contact, hitting the right angles on the backboard to finish, throwing no look passes in the lane...I think he's great at this type of play. I always see him as playing with an "agenda," though. Doesn't always trust his teammates. Gets a directive from a coach and takes it as insult...overdoes it one way or another to prove a point. I think he's a completely natural basketball player but a stupid human being. I thought that was the line you were trying to draw in your post.

[Edited by - vdesai on 01-25-2007 11:11 AM]


I don't disagree with anything you say. I guess it's hard to determine where physical skills end and mental take over, especially in the NBA where superior athletes are the norm. But when you have athletes of similar physical abilities what then separates them? I think a lot of Steph's skills that you speak to are innate and intuitive, but in the physical sense - which is fine. I can imagine a coach asking Kidd how he would handle a certain situation and him answering "I don't know, give me the ball and lets go see." These guys need to be able to go by feel, and it's their feel for the game that separates them.

Marbury is every bit as physically gifted as guys like Isiah, Stockton, Nash and Kidd, but there's still that certain something lacking in his ability to anticipate events before they happen, court vision, knowing who to feed and where, when to call his own number etc, that separates him from great players. I don't think it's all about an agenda. While his feel for the game is good, it's not up there with the greats.

It's not all that different than guys like Jamal and Tim Thomas. It's not for lack of physical skills that they struggle.
arkrud
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1/25/2007  11:45 AM
I am surprised that bbal IQ and overall intelligence is getting questioned as a main reason for players and teams success.
Look at the best teams and best players in the past and present of NBA.
Lakers, Spurs, Pistons, old Knocks and Boston. You can take any star of the past and best players today.
The high IQ is the main thing that separates them from the crowd and makes teams and players great.
You can have some skilled athletes on the team but you must build around smart brains of the game. They will compensate the athletic player’s stupidity. Look at Nash... He is MVP only because of hi bbal IQ.
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Andrew
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1/25/2007  11:47 AM
Posted by misterearl:

C'mon, you don't find it the least bit humorous that a person whon starts a thread about "stupid" basketball players doesn't know the proper usage of "to" as opposed to "too"?

you guys slay me

No...but I do find it funny when people bust on another poster about their spelling and grammar when they themselves make mistakes in their posts.
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kam77
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1/25/2007  11:51 AM
the title of this thread is so ironic
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Solace
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1/25/2007  11:55 AM
Posted by kam77:

the title of this thread is so ironic

Like wow, OMG, totally, dude, NO WAI... he made a typo! Like that's totally never happened in the history of the Internets before, totally.

He was making a point, and as usual, the trolls nitpicked instead of having a discussion. Thanks for playing.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
BRIGGS
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1/25/2007  11:58 AM
I do want to give Curry credit again. He has found his niche and stayed with his game. yes I cant believe a 6-11 285 pound guy had to have a rebound fall into his hand with 8 seconds left after 40 minutes to have 1 total rebound--but give ec credit for doing what he can do---which is IMPORTANT AND he has stayed out of foul trouble. In this case he DID compensate for what he had been doing wrong-- credit is deserved because he plays within himself and is effetcive with what he can do--score nearly at will with a high FG%

that is why lee should start because he does the little things ec doesnt --rebound pass box out etc...--we still dont have shot blocking--but hey

frye is scared and has poor basketball IQ--he cant figure out what the hll to do with himself---he's all over the court like a chicken with his head off jumpshooter inside guy? doesnt want to get involved? same sht @ AZ. and jefferies just scks we ate 32mm back to back
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oohah
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1/25/2007  12:06 PM
I don't get it. Frye was lost yesterday? Was that on offense? I wish he could go 5 for 10 lost for the rest of his career then.

Frye's trouble was on defense. However, he did make some nice plays bothering Stoudamire, especially in the first half.

When the Suns went on their big run in the third quarter the front line was: Lee, Curry, and Balkman, so there must have been some other culprits on the defensive end.

oohah

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martin
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1/25/2007  12:15 PM
Posted by oohah:

I don't get it. Frye was lost yesterday? Was that on offense? I wish he could go 5 for 10 lost for the rest of his career then.

Frye's trouble was on defense. However, he did make some nice plays bothering Stoudamire, especially in the first half.

When the Suns went on their big run in the third quarter the front line was: Lee, Curry, and Balkman, so there must have been some other culprits on the defensive end.

oohah

didn't Stoudimire have foul trouble in the first half and sat most of it? Or at least a large chunk?
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oohah
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1/25/2007  12:20 PM
didn't Stoudimire have foul trouble in the first half and sat most of it? Or at least a large chunk?

Yes Stoudamire did have to sit out a large portion of the second quarter. In addition, Frye made some defensive nice plays around the basket contesting stoudamire and causing him to alter his shot, which he missed. This happened while Stoudamire was in the game, not while he was on the bench.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 25-01-2007 12:24 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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we have to many stupid basketball players
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