Posted by kam77:

Posted by fishmike:

One of the things I killed Isiah for was spending a ton of money to bring veteran guys in, none of which were from winning NBA programs or had a history of winning in this league.
Marbury, Francis, Jalen Rose, Mo Taylor, Curry, Antonio Davis, Penny Hardaway and Tim Thomas were all guys Isiah brought in making big money. Of those only Tim Thomas, Penny and Antonio had been a part of winning programs for any amount of time, and Antonio and Penny were obviously on thier way out (not in league).
Other key aquisitions: Jerome James, Crawford, Jared Jefferies, Nazr, Moochie... of all of those only JJSkinny had played in a +.500 system in Washington.

Two guys you forgot:

Malik Rose came from a winner. Quentin Richardson came from a winner.

We had Kurt Thomas, Keith Van Horn, and some mediocre first rounders in our system as trade bait when Isiah got here, what kind of winning vets were we supposed to turn that into?

Posted by Elite:

"It was like the court was tilted," New York's David Lee said. "They were running downhill, and we were struggling to go uphill."

I have been saying for a while one of the biggest problems with our team is conditioning. Our guys just arent in shape.. Q rich is heavy, Malik Rose doesent even look like hes fit to make it up the court. Curry while he has lost weight is still 15 pounds too heavy... the list goes on.

Pat Riley wont let you PLAY on the heat unless you have something like 8% body fat... he suspended Walker and Posey for not making the cut. And you could tell last night, the main thing was these guys were in better shape than us, Williams and Payton were simply running by our guys all night.

Isiah said "nobody will ever say we're not in good condition" well im saying it. The knicks need a much more strict conditioning program

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by kam77:

Posted by fishmike:

One of the things I killed Isiah for was spending a ton of money to bring veteran guys in, none of which were from winning NBA programs or had a history of winning in this league.
Marbury, Francis, Jalen Rose, Mo Taylor, Curry, Antonio Davis, Penny Hardaway and Tim Thomas were all guys Isiah brought in making big money. Of those only Tim Thomas, Penny and Antonio had been a part of winning programs for any amount of time, and Antonio and Penny were obviously on thier way out (not in league).
Other key aquisitions: Jerome James, Crawford, Jared Jefferies, Nazr, Moochie... of all of those only JJSkinny had played in a +.500 system in Washington.

Two guys you forgot:

Malik Rose came from a winner. Quentin Richardson came from a winner.

I didnt forget them at all. I was just listing the big money guys... essentially $8mm and above. I love Q's effort on a nightly basis, but he spent one year in Pho with a winner. The rest of his days were spent in Clipper land.

We had Kurt Thomas, Keith Van Horn, and some mediocre first rounders in our system as trade bait when Isiah got here, what kind of winning vets were we supposed to turn that into?

Another great question which brings us to another point. No deal is better than a bad deal.
That being said some guys that were traded along the way that might fit the profile: Sam Cassell, Raja Bell, Mutumbo, Alonzo Mourning, Marquis Daniels, Kenny Thomas, etc
I'm just talking about guys that have come from winning programs and know how to win games in this league. They dont have to be stars... stop gap players are fine while we amass young talent. Had we just done that in the first place we would be looking at $20million in cap space plus have all our picks this summer.

Instead Isiah made any trade that got him the better player, regardless of contract, position or history. Now, what you see is what you get. Subpar talent. Subpar effort. .400 basketball.

Nixluva... Isiah is NOT a "very good talent evaluator."

He's had *some* success in the draft. Thats it. Signing and trading for guys like Mo T, Tim Thomas.. hell, see the list at the top of the thread IS PART OF EVALUATING TALENT.

You left Jerome out too!

You don't go from a 23 win team to a 50 win team with basically the same players

Posted by franco12:

Posted by fishmike:

sure and Q went from the Clippers to the Suns, etc etc

A couple of guys are one thing.. my point is our whole team is guys essentially from losing situation for most of their career. Take out MAlik and how many playoff wins does our whole team have? 10? 15?

Lets review the current knick roster:

All from solid college programs-
Balkman
Collins
Lee
Frye
Robinson

Winning teams previously, playing minor roles
Rose
James
Cato

Long pro career, mixed experience, playing minor role
Francis

Played on winning team at one point in career- major part of team
Q
Marbury
Jeffries

Never played with a winning team- major part of tea
Crawford
Curry

You could put Marbury down as never been with a winning team- but I watched his 42 win team almost beat out the spurs on one of their championship runs.

I'd rather look at these players as being flawed talents- I think Isiah as a coach is instilling in them a winning spirit. The other article posted here giving props to Isiah for having gotten Curry to play at a high level when all his other coaches failed- Isiah has Curry in a winner frame of mind- the issue with the team is Curry is pretty 1 dimensional and hurts us on the d on not boarding or blocking. Flawed.

Put Curry or Crawford on the Lakers, and suddenly, we wouldn't be talking about their flaws or being from loosing franchises- why? because on a team like the lakers they wouldn't have to play the significant roles they have to play here.

Crawford's calling is being a combo guard off the bench behind 2 better players- better yet, put him on the pistons. Guaranteed, his production would decrease, but his efficiency would increase.

Why? Because the pistons are a winning program and we're a loosing program? No, because on the pistons his flawed game wouldn't be exposed and magnified.

Posted by fishmike:

Someone mentioned Pat Riley benching guys for body fat. What kind of message would it send to sit Curry for a month until he loses 20 pounds? How about sitting Nate for 5 games after that stupid dunk?

Its OK to lose here at MSG. Your boss will tell you its not your fault, the other team was just better tonight. Most of the players Isiah has brought in are used to hearing that, and it shows in their nightly effort

Posted by fishmike:

^^ bigtime. I think in 10 years Marbury has played on one winning team. Q's played on one. Jerome (as if it matters) one. Cato and Rose dont play. Francis played on one winning team and got swept in his only playoff series. Funny how the one year he did make it all he did was bitch about JVG's coaching and how down his #s were.

Franco... there is a losing culture here. Isiah caters to the players and makes excuses for them. There is no accountability. The only guy that could have changed that was Larry, so made up ridiculous rotations, etc but the point was it doesnt matter who plays, because until you learn to do it right your losing anyway. Guy did a bad job but he was the only one that didnt cater the players.

Someone mentioned Pat Riley benching guys for body fat. What kind of message would it send to sit Curry for a month until he loses 20 pounds? How about sitting Nate for 5 games after that stupid dunk?

Its OK to lose here at MSG. Your boss will tell you its not your fault, the other team was just better tonight. Most of the players Isiah has brought in are used to hearing that, and it shows in their nightly effort

Posted by nixluva:

This team has been playing at a .500 level for a while now, it's only the slow start, which has us in this sub .500 hole. Now obviously they're gonna have to play well above .500 in order to get out of that hole. If they do that, they'd be one of the best teams in the East. So let's just keep things in perspective.