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Curry is actually improving his shooting despite the double teams.
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djsunyc
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1/21/2007  2:36 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

I wont ever under estimate Dlee but I dont believe he is a 20ppg guy at this point. He wasnt in college either. I hope he can at some point as well. What does that have to do with Curry improving against double teams? Thats the basis for this thread. Do you want me to put Dlee down? Its not going to happen. Dlee is one of my 4 favorite players.

DJ I think you hearing anyone be happy at Curry improving at anything is like exposing dracula/vampire to light. You just cant take it.

today's the first day i've been responding ad naseum about curry. like sitting and responding to individual posts. you're the one that's starting threads every day, and responding to every single critique of the guy for the past 2 months. i'm fine. are you?
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holfresh
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1/21/2007  2:37 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:

courtesy of majorleads:

"I bet if Isiah played Lee at center and had Marbury dump the ball into him 20 plus times a game, Lee would find a way too average 20 and 10."

Yeah but would the Knicks win ball games?


nobody knows the question to that. steph was 20&8 and didn't win. SAR was 20&8 but didn't win. zach is 20&10 but didn't win. i wouldn't consider what we're doing now as technically winning. and what would the difference be if it was eddy or lee getting those #'s?

[Edited by - djsunyc on 01-21-2007 2:32 PM]

Eddy can draw a double team...Eddy one on one is almost unstoppable...Eddy frees Q and Marbs to launch threes all over the place...Lee getting 20 touches in the post well...Have you seen Lee in the post...For that matter, How about Q in the post...That's a probably 30 and 10 with 20 touches...


[Edited by - holfresh on 01-21-2007 2:38 PM]
SugarRayRichardson
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1/21/2007  2:41 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

I wont ever under estimate Dlee but I dont believe he is a 20ppg guy at this point. He wasnt in college either. I hope he can at some point as well. What does that have to do with Curry improving against double teams? Thats the basis for this thread. Do you want me to put Dlee down? Its not going to happen. Dlee is one of my 4 favorite players.

DJ I think you hearing anyone be happy at Curry improving at anything is like exposing dracula/vampire to light. You just cant take it.

today's the first day i've been responding ad naseum about curry. like sitting and responding to individual posts. you're the one that's starting threads every day, and responding to every single critique of the guy for the past 2 months. i'm fine. are you?

I'm fine because I actually like our team. I could pull up a years worth of posts were you hate on Curry as well as many other Knicks. This is nothing new for you. In the past your posts have been at least closer to being fair. Now its hard to tell you from Major Leads. What is the difference?

[Edited by - SugarRayRichardson on 01-21-2007 2:43 PM]
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
djsunyc
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1/21/2007  2:41 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:

courtesy of majorleads:

"I bet if Isiah played Lee at center and had Marbury dump the ball into him 20 plus times a game, Lee would find a way too average 20 and 10."

Yeah but would the Knicks win ball games?


nobody knows the question to that. steph was 20&8 and didn't win. SAR was 20&8 but didn't win. zach is 20&10 but didn't win. i wouldn't consider what we're doing now as technically winning. and what would the difference be if it was eddy or lee getting those #'s?

[Edited by - djsunyc on 01-21-2007 2:32 PM]

Eddy can draw a double team...Eddy one on one is almost unstoppable...Eddy frees Q and Marbs to launch threes all over the place...Lee getting 20 touches in the post well...Have you seen Lee in the post...For that matter, How about Q in the post...That's a probably 30 and 10 with 20 touches...

yes, but if lee is getting the ball dumped to him, and he's scoring 20 points, don't you think opposing defense would start doubling him also? and is lee not a better passer than curry?

if any players starts going off, teams start to double (i.e. us vs. gilbert, ray allen, zach). and even within the context of a game.

it's a tough question to answer. but i think lee is the type of player that the more he plays, the more touches he gets, the better his #'s will be. whereas some players play well in fewer minutes but kind of level off with extended time, i think lee's production increases with more minutes.
Silverfuel
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1/21/2007  2:50 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

yes, but if lee is getting the ball dumped to him, and he's scoring 20 points, don't you think opposing defense would start doubling him also?
No. Because I Lee on offense does not require a double team. I like Lee almost as much as you do but he is not scoring 20 if the offense is running around him. Curry cannot be stopped by one guy. He dominated Big Ben against Chicago and then dropped 38 on the Piston front line. I don't think Lee can do that no matter how many touches he gets.
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holfresh
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1/21/2007  2:51 PM

But you can say that about any player...If Fyre gets 20 touches as well I think it's 20 pts a night...

The objective though is not only getting the points but doing it in a way that will win ball games...I don't think Lee has the moves in the post to be an effective post player right now...he also doesn't have the strength..But Lee has impressed me to be honest and I think he can be a lot better with hard work...But to dismiss what Curry is doing by saying Lee can do it too is just a little short sighted..
djsunyc
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1/21/2007  2:53 PM
Posted by holfresh:


But you can say that about any player...If Fyre gets 20 touches as well I think it's 20 pts a night...

The objective though is not only getting the points but doing it in a way that will win ball games...I don't think Lee has the moves in the post to be an effective post player right now...he also doesn't have the strength..But Lee has impressed me to be honest and I think he can be a lot better with hard work...But to dismiss what Curry is doing by saying Lee can do it too is just a little short sighted..

i don't think anybody is dismissing anything. and i agree with you about frye. that's why i feel like this must happen between frye, lee and curry: start one, bring one off the bench and trade the other one.

i think frye could draw doubles as well. his jump hook is nice and he can step out also.
TheGame
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1/21/2007  2:53 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

let's say frye is the center and lee is the pf, you don't think lee can get 20&10 if given the ball 20 times a game?

I think Lee could score if given the ball 20 times but if you are trying to suggest that if we gave the ball to Lee as much as we give it to Curry, that he would be just as effective, I have to disagree with that. Curry cannot be stopped one-on-one within 5 feet of the basket. Lee has quickness but he has not shown any real post moves or even an effective hook shot. He can do some things because he has a decent handle, some hops, and can use both hands, but against the type of defensive pressure that Curry faces, Lee would not be scoring 20+ points per game nor would he draw the double and triple teams that Curry faces, which opens up the floor for other players.
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holfresh
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1/21/2007  2:53 PM

Let's put it this way DJ...You have to show you coach and the team that you deserve to have the ball dumped into you 20 times a game...To this point...Lee has not showed this...
djsunyc
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1/21/2007  2:55 PM
Posted by TheGame:
Posted by djsunyc:

let's say frye is the center and lee is the pf, you don't think lee can get 20&10 if given the ball 20 times a game?

Curry cannot be stopped one-on-one within 5 feet of the basket. Lee has quickness but he has not shown any real post moves or even an effective hook shot. He can do some things because he has a decent handle, some hops, and can use both hands, but against the type of defensive pressure that Curry faces, Lee would not be scoring 20+ points per game nor would he draw the double and triple teams that Curry faces, which opens up the floor for other players.

i don't disagree with that. curry can't be stopped. but i also think if we expended all our resources into developing lee or frye as the down low player, they would be good at it also, no?

but curry clearly has the advantage b/c of his size. so the smart money would be on developing him down there over the other two.
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1/21/2007  2:58 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:

courtesy of majorleads:

"I bet if Isiah played Lee at center and had Marbury dump the ball into him 20 plus times a game, Lee would find a way too average 20 and 10."

Yeah but would the Knicks win ball games?

are we winning now? We are talking about the Knicks right?

Curry has been handed a big responsibility. This staff has really believed in him. It would be nice if he showed he deserved it by slimming down, and most of all by showing up in shape next year and at a reasonable playing weight, like he did 2 years ago in his contract year. Hopefully without the diet pills/ephedra or whatever else he was sucking down.

This is a good step for Curry, but the Knicks will never be any kind of contendor built around a guy that plays with 30 extra pounds.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
holfresh
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1/21/2007  3:01 PM

But saying all the above...I have to say Lee has shown me a few things this season and I really can't say what he is going to be and what he isn't going to be..He is really good in his role right now that needs to be expanded based on merit...Let him show us he can do the things that his backers here thinks he can do...If he can do all these things,he won't have a bigger backer here than me, I tell you that much...
holfresh
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1/21/2007  3:09 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:

courtesy of majorleads:

"I bet if Isiah played Lee at center and had Marbury dump the ball into him 20 plus times a game, Lee would find a way too average 20 and 10."

Yeah but would the Knicks win ball games?

are we winning now? We are talking about the Knicks right?

Curry has been handed a big responsibility. This staff has really believed in him. It would be nice if he showed he deserved it by slimming down, and most of all by showing up in shape next year and at a reasonable playing weight, like he did 2 years ago in his contract year. Hopefully without the diet pills/ephedra or whatever else he was sucking down.

This is a good step for Curry, but the Knicks will never be any kind of contendor built around a guy that plays with 30 extra pounds.

Please fish, Curry is a force to be reckoned with in this league with the 30 extra pounds...The Nets played this guy perfectly denying him the ball and he still was a force...After the 5-11 start the Knicks has been playing .500 ball...Over a season that 40-41 wins...Knicks has a solid shot at that..This is half a season removed from the turmoil last year...Who knows what Curry could be with more work...Some if you guys act like the Knicks has reached their plateau and will level off..These guys are young...
fishmike
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1/21/2007  3:16 PM
he wasnt a force in that game. He played a lot but was a big part of the reason we were down all game and couldnt get a stop when we needed just one.

He's a force on one side of the ball. I would say he's certainly a top 5 post scorer in the league right now, but he's not a 'force in this league' because its all on one side of the ball.

Holfresh, part of the reason Curry's weight irks me is the total lack of effort or anything on one end of the court, and as long as he's 40 pounds too heavy its hard to see that change. Even on offense you see a lot more layups and a lot fewer dunks. He doesnt explode to the rim like he did with the Bulls 2 years ago before sitting with the heart.

Considering we gave up a package that = star player asking him to be in NBA shape isnt too much to ask.

Most of all I just want the Knicks to be a good team. 41 wins isnt good. I dont care if it gets you the 6th seed.

If Curry ever showed up at 270 I would be praising this kid to no end.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
holfresh
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1/21/2007  3:23 PM
Posted by fishmike:

he wasnt a force in that game. He played a lot but was a big part of the reason we were down all game and couldnt get a stop when we needed just one.

He's a force on one side of the ball. I would say he's certainly a top 5 post scorer in the league right now, but he's not a 'force in this league' because its all on one side of the ball.

Holfresh, part of the reason Curry's weight irks me is the total lack of effort or anything on one end of the court, and as long as he's 40 pounds too heavy its hard to see that change. Even on offense you see a lot more layups and a lot fewer dunks. He doesnt explode to the rim like he did with the Bulls 2 years ago before sitting with the heart.

Considering we gave up a package that = star player asking him to be in NBA shape isnt too much to ask.

Most of all I just want the Knicks to be a good team. 41 wins isnt good. I dont care if it gets you the 6th seed.

If Curry ever showed up at 270 I would be praising this kid to no end.

You don't go from 23 wins one season to a 50 win team the next with the same players..There are stages of improvement...
fishmike
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1/21/2007  3:42 PM
^^^ well, a couple things. One is this isnt a team of rookies. Isiah has spend quarter of a billion dollars to bring in experienced players that can win (remember the Dolan mandate).

Marbury, JJSkinny, Crawford, Richardson, MAlik Rose, Francis and Jerome JAmes have all been in the league for some time and are being paid a lot money. Its not unfair to expect some wins when you go out and spend what Isiah did on NBA veterans. 23 wins is where Isiah put us, NOT where we are starting from. So get that measuring stick out of the equation.

As for stages of improvement I would much rather be talking about guys improving their games, then talking about how nice it would be if the guy our GM annoited to be our franchise player showed up in shape to play the sport he gets paid $10mill a year to play.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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1/21/2007  3:45 PM
and in 2 years, when curry, frye and lee are supposed to be surging, where will steph be? where will quentin's back be? will crawford still have shot selection issues at age 29?

we need to start finding some long term prospects at the guard spots. that's why some here, myself included, wanted marcus in this draft and not balkman.
BigC
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1/21/2007  3:48 PM
Why is Curry's weight such a big deal when he is playing 33 plus minutes and is scoring on guys off the dribble like J Oneal?

When he played on the Bulls he came in camp losing a ton of weight yet he was not able to close out games.
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BigC
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1/21/2007  3:50 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

and in 2 years, when curry, frye and lee are supposed to be surging, where will steph be? where will quentin's back be? will crawford still have shot selection issues at age 29?

we need to start finding some long term prospects at the guard spots. that's why some here, myself included, wanted marcus in this draft and not balkman.

Marcus Williams to me was a no brainer.

BigC's Knick blogs and Knicks highlights after every Knicks game http://fromthebaseline.com/
djsunyc
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1/21/2007  3:50 PM
Posted by BigC:

Why is Curry's weight such a big deal when he is playing 33 plus minutes and is scoring on guys off the dribble like J Oneal?

When he played on the Bulls he came in camp losing a ton of weight yet he was not able to close out games.

b/c it takes him forever to react to anything on defense. he literally takes a long time to recognize, then a long time to move. weight loss can only help his career, not hurt it.
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