Posted by Rich:

He's been better than Layden.

Posted by Rich:

He's been better than Layden.

Posted by Solace:

Posted by Rich:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by Rich:

He's been better than Layden.

I don't even agree with that, but nor do I care. One's argument can't be that one flavor of mud is better than another. It's still mud!

The reason the point is valid is that this team has some young pieces that can form the core of a winning team. The problem is that Isiah paid too high a cost for most of them.

Layden acquired nothing of enduring value.

I guess. I still liked the Lampe, Vujanic picks, I thought Van Horn was going to be a piece for a long time, I liked the Mutombo signing, although it was short term, Frank Williams, Sweetney, and a good amount of picks coming our way in future years. All those things went out the window when Isiah took over, so it's tough to make that judgment. Layden also was put in a playoffs or bust mode, while Isiah has gotten a lot more leeway than Layden did. No one is defending Layden, but I don't see how you people give one guy credit for something that the other guy got nailed for. That doesn't make any sense.

Posted by Solace:

Posted by buddapaw:

Layden passed on Artest and Amare enuff said

Isiah passed on Bynum, and Marcus Williams. Enuff said.

See the double standard yet?

Posted by Rich:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by buddapaw:

Layden passed on Artest and Amare enuff said

Isiah passed on Bynum, and Marcus Williams. Enuff said.

See the double standard yet?

As Andrew said, Layden didn't pass on Artest, but the difference is that at least Frye and Balkman (who I should have included in my post above) are good players. Layden sacrificed Camby when he passed on Amare (and Butler).

Posted by Solace:

Posted by Rich:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by Rich:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by Rich:

He's been better than Layden.

I don't even agree with that, but nor do I care. One's argument can't be that one flavor of mud is better than another. It's still mud!

The reason the point is valid is that this team has some young pieces that can form the core of a winning team. The problem is that Isiah paid too high a cost for most of them.

Layden acquired nothing of enduring value.

I guess. I still liked the Lampe, Vujanic picks, I thought Van Horn was going to be a piece for a long time, I liked the Mutombo signing, although it was short term, Frank Williams, Sweetney, and a good amount of picks coming our way in future years. All those things went out the window when Isiah took over, so it's tough to make that judgment. Layden also was put in a playoffs or bust mode, while Isiah has gotten a lot more leeway than Layden did. No one is defending Layden, but I don't see how you people give one guy credit for something that the other guy got nailed for. That doesn't make any sense.

But with the benefit of hindight, what have Lampe, Vujanic, Frank Williams, and Sweetney turned out to be? Not much.

As of now, Mutombo is probably the most valuable asset in that group, which is kind of revealing.

OTOH, Curry, Lee, Frye, and Q (and maybe Marbury if he continues to play at this level) are pretty good players. That's why I'm giving Isiah credit, mitigated by the cap problems and the draft choices owed (which was my point about him paying too high a cost).

The point is in years one and two, we thought Layden struck gold with Sweetney, Lampe, Frank Williams, Vujanic, Van Horn, and Mutombo. Yet, we give Isiah's guys less time to prove themselves and already determine that they're better. It's like Isiah's pulling a sleight of hand trick or something. I also think that Isiah is part of the reason why those guys failed. They were put in losing situations from the moment Isiah jumped on board, and Isiah had a lot to do with that. Part of success in the NBA is opportunity. Isiah is giving his own guys the opportunity, but basically canned most of Layden's. Deke and Van Horn were starters before Isiah came around. Now Deke is a reserve and Van Horn retired, after being relegated to a reserve. Lampe was traded to a team that had him playing behind Amare. Vujanic was traded to a team that had multiple point guards and no room for him to come over. Frank Williams played well, and was rewarded by the Knicks trading for Marbury and Moochie Norris and burying him on the bench, then trading him to a team that had THREE point guards. Sweetney was rewarded for his hard play, by the Knicks trading for THREE more power forwards and then trading him to the Bulls, which can't use him as a starter. I don't think any of these things would've gone this way had Isiah not been in charge. Another guy I forgot to mention is Doleac. That was a brilliant LLE acquisition by Layden.

Posted by Solace:

Posted by Rich:

Lots players have bounced around and ultimately found success. Look at Chauncey Billups. So if Lampe, Sweetney, et a are determined enough, they should have the opportunity to succeed with some team, if they have the talent. I don't think they do.

Being better than Layden is not a real endorsement, but I really don't think it's close.

So why mention it? I don't see either GM having any chance of leading any team to a championship from the GM spot, so what's the difference? Like I said, different flavors of mud.