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Isiah trying to buyout Francis to get Webber....
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nyk4ever
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1/12/2007  1:22 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:

Who loses playing time?

My first thoughts as well. No thanks to CWebb and if Isiah does do this, then I also agree with Joe, he's doing it to save his job and this overall would hurt the franchise. NO to CWEBB
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martin
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1/12/2007  1:41 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by Nalod:

Brown was fired for Isiah's sins.

Just win, and its all good.

Brown was fired for incompetence and sabotaging the team, and being Trevor Ariza delusional.

Brown was fired for Isiahs sins.

MSG does not fire for incompetence.

Sabatage is subjective. Isiah sabotaged the team for two years and was not fired.

I think the knicks would be no worse with Brown coaching this season given the personal changes and the way things have gone this year.

Browns tactics were bad, but he wanted to thin out the talent which is what Isiah did this year.

Brown was fired for the wrong reasons. His tactics might have been wrong, but he "sabotaged" for a reason.

To reiterate what bigbeast said, Zeke is by and large getting rid of the players that LB orchestrated to bring into the fold.

Zeke had the authority so he should shoulder the ultimate blame for the Francis trade, but the LB stans are taking it way too far by completely freeing LB of any responsibility.

For whatever reason, the LB groupie squad is getting desperate because all signs are pointing to his performance and actions being a big reason for last year's disaster of a season. This is practically the exact same team. Now its...'well Larry would have done just fine with this team'...who cares. Let the man live with the multi-millions that he snatched from the knicks.

besides Fran who did LB orchestrate to come to the Knicks? MoT? Penny? Jalen? James?

And how does a coach orchestrate outside of asking?

There are no signs that are pointing to his performance and actions being a big reason for last year's disaster... it's more than a sign, it's the truth. He wanted Zeke out and was doing his best to show his GM/owner how flawed his team was. Plain and simple.
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sebstar
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1/12/2007  2:53 PM
I firmly believe he was instrumental in getting Francis over here. We can probably add Rose to the list because reportedly Toronto made it clear that the only way to get V Carter was to take on Rose. Zeke passed.

I completely agree with your assessment of last year. It was a hall of fame level attempt at sabotage, and a completely selfish objective that hasnt received the appropriate shine in the press. It was a power play on LB's part to amass personal power and wealth.
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Nalod
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1/12/2007  3:02 PM
adding Fran was a collassal phuch up no matter who was in charge!

This year the team is playing better, which might have happened anyway if you consider the roster has been diluted as per Larry's wishes, and the Division is really pathetic this year.

No one deny's the team sucked last year, and Larry for what ever reason played his cards wrong, but there was a reason for it and its apparent that Brown tried to make Isiah look bad.

What he failed to recognize was Isiah needed little help in that regard.

Truth is either larry completly lost his mind and wanted that trade and Isiah did it to make HIM look bad, or there was another plan for a run at Garnett.

But lets be real, Isiah could have said no to that, but yes to other things and smoothed over the situation.

Larry's record speaks for itself. IT sucked. What does Isiah's say?

Buying out Francis just blows my mind!
martin
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1/12/2007  3:06 PM
Posted by sebstar:

I firmly believe he was instrumental in getting Francis over here. We can probably add Rose to the list because reportedly Toronto made it clear that the only way to get V Carter was to take on Rose. Zeke passed.

I completely agree with your assessment of last year. It was a hall of fame level attempt at sabotage, and a completely selfish objective that hasnt received the appropriate shine in the press. It was a power play on LB's part to amass personal power and wealth.

how about this: it was 50/50 that both LB and Isiah wanted Fran, but will also agree that the GM has the last word on any trade and/or draft and should bare fuller responsibility for each.

Isiah has been hounding to trade for Rose for years. Do that mean Isiah is responsible?
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sebstar
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1/12/2007  4:27 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by sebstar:

I firmly believe he was instrumental in getting Francis over here. We can probably add Rose to the list because reportedly Toronto made it clear that the only way to get V Carter was to take on Rose. Zeke passed.

I completely agree with your assessment of last year. It was a hall of fame level attempt at sabotage, and a completely selfish objective that hasnt received the appropriate shine in the press. It was a power play on LB's part to amass personal power and wealth.

how about this: it was 50/50 that both LB and Isiah wanted Fran, but will also agree that the GM has the last word on any trade and/or draft and should bare fuller responsibility for each.

Isiah has been hounding to trade for Rose for years. Do that mean Isiah is responsible?

Agreed. And I have been pretty consistent about that. I'm not here to be an Isiah groupie, nor am I here to act as if Zeke's the object of my fatal attraction. Zeke gets paid millions of dollars to make sound decisions. The Francis trade was a colossal fluck up, no matter who was whispering in his ear.

But...

If we are going to frame the debate in regards to giving LB a complete pass. Well I have a problem with that. Completely unfair.

I actually think the trade is worthy or removal. We gave up assets, while bringing in an expensive old player who was counterproductive to the team's current and future success. But the team has made some noticeable strides, so I believe its just as counterproductive to ignore the positive momentum and demand more management upheavals. I think Zeke has learned on the job and grown as a GM (as evidenced by his lack of panic moves during the off season) and I am willing to stick with him. If we have to bite this golden bullet to move on from this situation, so be it. I agree with Nalod in that regard, however, I'm definitely not comfortable with it.
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Allanfan20
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1/12/2007  4:29 PM
This is your brain:


This is your brain on drugs:


I feel like I'm on crack just attempting to think of what drives Isiah Thomas to do some of these things or come up with his "Plans."
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
crzymdups
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1/12/2007  7:40 PM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by Silverfuel:

Who loses playing time?

I don't know but if Isiah does this to save his ass, he should lose his GM privelages. He is only doing what's best for himself in this particular instance not what is best overall for the team.

In a few articles in the Post he also used the line "it's not like it's a do or die for us". Well, I think if you are going to spend the money to buy out Francis and have an open roster spot, you have to be pretty serious about wanting him here, IMO.

uh, yes it is better for the team - did you miss the part about how Marbury playing is "a direct correlation of Francis not playing."
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crzymdups
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1/12/2007  7:45 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by sebstar:

I firmly believe he was instrumental in getting Francis over here. We can probably add Rose to the list because reportedly Toronto made it clear that the only way to get V Carter was to take on Rose. Zeke passed.

I completely agree with your assessment of last year. It was a hall of fame level attempt at sabotage, and a completely selfish objective that hasnt received the appropriate shine in the press. It was a power play on LB's part to amass personal power and wealth.

how about this: it was 50/50 that both LB and Isiah wanted Fran, but will also agree that the GM has the last word on any trade and/or draft and should bare fuller responsibility for each.

Isiah has been hounding to trade for Rose for years. Do that mean Isiah is responsible?

Brown BEGGED for those players, because ironically the player he trashed more than anyone - Marbury - was the one player he couldn't possibly play without. He begged for Rose and he begged for Francis.

The Knicks made a substantial investment in Brown, of course they were going to try to get him what he wanted. Who's fault was it that Brown asked for players and then didn't use them? Isiah's? He's supposed to predict the musings of an old man?

Hey, here's a question - if Brown is now suddenly "too old to coach" why did he accept a five year contract to be coach of the Knicks? Because he was angling for personnel control and a GM job from the moment he got to town? Like the job he interviewed for in Cleveland and the one he took in Philly? That's my guess. The guy is a liar who has been fired from each of his last two jobs and BOTH times David Stern ruled that he should get less than half of the value of his contract. Now if Larry didn't do anything wrong, why does Stern keep making him leave so much money on the table?
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joec32033
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1/12/2007  7:56 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by Silverfuel:

Who loses playing time?

I don't know but if Isiah does this to save his ass, he should lose his GM privelages. He is only doing what's best for himself in this particular instance not what is best overall for the team.

In a few articles in the Post he also used the line "it's not like it's a do or die for us". Well, I think if you are going to spend the money to buy out Francis and have an open roster spot, you have to be pretty serious about wanting him here, IMO.

uh, yes it is better for the team - did you miss the part about how Marbury playing is "a direct correlation of Francis not playing."

Did you miss the part where this thread is about acquiring Webber to play ahead of the Frye and Lee? Did you're readin comrehension take a little vacation on the fact that 3/4's of the article is about acquiring Webber?
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crzymdups
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1/12/2007  8:23 PM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by Silverfuel:

Who loses playing time?

I don't know but if Isiah does this to save his ass, he should lose his GM privelages. He is only doing what's best for himself in this particular instance not what is best overall for the team.

In a few articles in the Post he also used the line "it's not like it's a do or die for us". Well, I think if you are going to spend the money to buy out Francis and have an open roster spot, you have to be pretty serious about wanting him here, IMO.

uh, yes it is better for the team - did you miss the part about how Marbury playing is "a direct correlation of Francis not playing."

Did you miss the part where this thread is about acquiring Webber to play ahead of the Frye and Lee? Did you're readin comrehension take a little vacation on the fact that 3/4's of the article is about acquiring Webber?

Sorry, I was going by reality and not Frank Isola's version of it. Francis is gone. Webber isn't coming and never was.
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joec32033
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1/12/2007  8:35 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by Silverfuel:

Who loses playing time?

I don't know but if Isiah does this to save his ass, he should lose his GM privelages. He is only doing what's best for himself in this particular instance not what is best overall for the team.

In a few articles in the Post he also used the line "it's not like it's a do or die for us". Well, I think if you are going to spend the money to buy out Francis and have an open roster spot, you have to be pretty serious about wanting him here, IMO.

uh, yes it is better for the team - did you miss the part about how Marbury playing is "a direct correlation of Francis not playing."

Did you miss the part where this thread is about acquiring Webber to play ahead of the Frye and Lee? Did you're readin comrehension take a little vacation on the fact that 3/4's of the article is about acquiring Webber?

Sorry, I was going by reality and not Frank Isola's version of it. Francis is gone. Webber isn't coming and never was.

See. That's the problem. The article isn't dealing with reality because the only thing that has happened is Isiah has said he is interested in Webber, he has sent Francis home with no return date set, and oh yea, Isiah saying he is interested in Webber. He hasn't signed Webber(yet) and he also isn't sitting idly by wondering how Webber is going to affect our youth. If Isiah had the money to, I have no doubt he would sign Webber, regardless of how it sets us back, as long as he has an NBA bench to sit on next year.
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crzymdups
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1/12/2007  8:38 PM
How does signing Webber help Isiah but not the team? Webber would make the team worse - if the team is worse Isiah gets fired.

Webber is going to go somewhere where he can come off the bench and play 20 minutes a night. LA or Det or Miami.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 01-12-2007 8:39 PM]
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joec32033
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1/12/2007  8:42 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

How does signing Webber help Isiah but not the team? Webber would make the team worse.

Webber is going to go somewhere where he can come off the bench and play 20 minutes a night. LA or Det or Miami.

short term Webber will give this team a better shot to win more games now-a season where Isiah has to show "improvement" to keep his job. Long Term, Webber will stunt the growth off Lee and Frye-and possibly Curry if Isiah still tries to get Frye minutes at center).

In LA, Webber may start-LA has Turiaf and Brian Cook there, which is nothing o brag about.

Miami has Haslem and Mourning so he may actually have to come off the bench there, although with Shaq out and Wade hurting they could probably use his versatility.
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crzymdups
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1/12/2007  8:46 PM
eh. Webber is horrendous on defense now, I think he'd make this team worse in the short term. He might improve our offense slightly, but not enough to offset his defense.

Next to Mourning or the Detroit bigs, his negatives on defense aren't as glaring. I think Detroit or Miami, maybe LA. LA will eventually get Odom and Kwame back, but could use him in the short term and playoffs, though he might not want to play with another gunner like Kobe.

Detroit makes the most sense. Maybe Chicago, actually.
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joec32033
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1/12/2007  8:48 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

eh. Webber is horrendous on defense now, I think he'd make this team worse in the short term. He might improve our offense slightly, but not enough to offset his defense.

Next to Mourning or the Detroit bigs, his negatives on defense aren't as glaring. I think Detroit or Miami, maybe LA. LA will eventually get Odom and Kwame back, but could use him in the short term and playoffs, though he might not want to play with another gunner like Kobe.

Detroit makes the most sense. Maybe Chicago, actually.

He would be the perfect fit in Chicago. I think he'll need the ball too much in Detroit to be real effective-which will throw off what has got Detroit as far as it has-not to mention his horrid defense.
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Isiah trying to buyout Francis to get Webber....
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