Posted by djsunyc:

the league is changing.

the lb's, fratello's, jvg, and riley days are over.

riley was lucky to have shaq since shaq is old school. but before shaq, he left, and now that shaq has been out, he left. he doesn't have a player on the roster backing up his hard ass methods.

jvg is hanging on b/c dawson likes him. and they put a team around him that will respond to his coaching style.

but again, those type of players and those days are gone.

it's a players league more than ever. and the priorities now are finding a coach that will keep them happy before finding a coach that will challenge them and make them better.

without duncan, pop won't be able to coach either.

avery so far seems to have a nice balance, but that team was already built to win big time before he got handed the reigns.

Seems like accurate analysis, but I wonder if this is just those coaches. Even other successful teams like the Mavs and Suns and the Pistons have veteran mature players to keep them successful. What about a hard guy like Karl or Skiles, though? They may just have enough mature young players to help. Maybe Karl also stands up for his players more? I dunno.

Yet, it still seems like the teams with the best combination of mature and skilled playerrs, who are willing to play buy into team play do the best. Utah, Chicago, Orlando, Cleveland, Denver seem most ready to hold the torch after some of the big stars of other good teams not listed start to get old. Dallas and the Pistons might be able to stay good longer since they have some relatively younger stars matched with some older ones (Chicago is similar as well), and the Wiz are interesting as well. Jordan might be probably one of the better underrated coaches in the league, I think. Sure, Arenas can light it up, but that team doesn't have all that great of a roster when compared to others, and he does well with it.

Question is will the Knicks turn into a good team? I can see some signs, but they have also shown to be pretty immature when it comes to some of the aspects of being a team. But I see more of an effort to be a team than last year, while still inconsistent and some players on a slower learning curve or resistant, so there may be a chance for the future of this team, with the right changes, coaching, and time.

Posted by bigbeast:

Posted by Bippity10:

One of the reasons why the talent in the league has taken a hit is becasue we don't coach our players anymore.

Your right. And this goes all the way down to highschool and AAU coaches.

I agree. This is why I believe Stern mentioned creating a system similar to baseball, and more so, International Soccer clubs who develop players, getting them used to coaching, etc. at an early age. I think one issue is a lack of positive male role models for many young men, particuarly in communities of color, which breeds a negative reaction to fathering from those of this background, especially when MANY do not have fathers, and then add to the fact that these hard head coaches are white. Sorry, this is an issue, whether some like it or not. This fatherhood issue is increasingly happening in the white community as well, btw. I saw this in my teaching experience, and there is mounting evidence to suggest that this missing-father reality is a growing issue of concern, even outside of basketball.


[Edited by - PresIke on 01-10-2007 1:06 PM]

Posted by djsunyc:

Posted by PresIke:

Posted by djsunyc:

the league is changing.

the lb's, fratello's, jvg, and riley days are over.

riley was lucky to have shaq since shaq is old school. but before shaq, he left, and now that shaq has been out, he left. he doesn't have a player on the roster backing up his hard ass methods.

jvg is hanging on b/c dawson likes him. and they put a team around him that will respond to his coaching style.

but again, those type of players and those days are gone.

it's a players league more than ever. and the priorities now are finding a coach that will keep them happy before finding a coach that will challenge them and make them better.

without duncan, pop won't be able to coach either.

avery so far seems to have a nice balance, but that team was already built to win big time before he got handed the reigns.

Seems like accurate analysis, but I wonder if this is just those coaches. Even other successful teams like the Mavs and Suns and the Pistons have veteran mature players to keep them successful. What about a hard guy like Karl or Skiles, though? They may just have enough mature young players to help. Maybe Karl also stands up for his players more? I dunno.

Yet, it still seems like the teams with the best combination of mature and skilled playerrs, who are willing to play buy into team play do the best. Utah, Chicago, Orlando, Cleveland, Denver seem most ready to hold the torch after some of the big stars of other good teams not listed start to get old. Dallas and the Pistons might be able to stay good longer since they have some relatively younger stars matched with some older ones (Chicago is similar as well), and the Wiz are interesting as well. Jordan might be probably one of the better underrated coaches in the league, I think. Sure, Arenas can light it up, but that team doesn't have all that great of a roster when compared to others, and he does well with it.

Question is will the Knicks turn into a good team? I can see some signs, but they have also shown to be pretty immature when it comes to some of the aspects of being a team. But I see more of an effort to be a team than last year, while still inconsistent and some players on a slower learning curve or resistant, so there may be a chance for the future of this team, with the right changes, coaching, and time.

skiles and sloan are good examples of a GM and coach on the same page.

both GM's get those coaches guys out of college, and usually playing for big time drill sargeant college coaches - calhoun and coach k. and in utah's case, some foreign players that grew up in a culture where the coach is the top of the food chain. so they don't disrupt the coach's flow by bring in "today's" nba player.

and when the GM does make a mistake, like when the jazz got stevenson, they dumped him b/c he was right outta high school and didn't fit with sloan. and same with tim thomas in chicago with skiles.

Good point. I do also think that Calhoun and coach K go for players they think are mature enough to handle their approach as well. They are top programs so they can get those kinds of kids. I'm not saying that they don't develop the players well or am trying to take anything away from those two because I think they are great at preparing players, but they have the privilege of recruting those high schoolers that are already pretty mature and ready to be coached. Those kind of kids WANT to play for Duke and UConn. Other kids with talent may want to as well, but those coaches, I suspect, won't take them because it might be too hard to coach. It's basically like an AP course for basketball. Only those that meet all of the standards will be accepted, and Duke, especially because of its high academic reputation, is not going to take kids with a lot of problems in their history unless they show signs of maturity. Those two don't HAVE to coach "tough" kids so I think that's part of the reason why their players are more NBA ready than some, even before they coach them. Obviously, that means those two coaches are GREAT at finding that kind of player in high school, btw.

I think that may also lead to an explaanation as to why UConn players have done better in the pros than Dukies. UConn is not as demanding of an academic school (still good) so kids who are mature and good students that are good at college ball don't necessarily translate into NBA players. Where as UConn gets mature players, but maybe a notch or two below Duke's academic standards. They can take a larger crop of high schoolers, and I think Duke's rep as a VERY white, preppy, elitist school also has an effect on some who may not want to go there (especially if they visit). Anyway, this is all specualation on my part...thinking out loud.


[Edited by - PresIke on 01-10-2007 1:20 PM]

the players are happy that he's gone... that's all i need to know... he needed to go... similar situation w/LB... i don't care how good of a coach you are, if you can't get your players to listen to you, what good are you to the franchise?

it's simple, west started bringing in players that didn't fit with fratello's system.

and no move was more evident than trading battier for gay. so fratello was gone no matter what. they changed philosophies.

it's a different situation here since lb was brought in to a team that was already put together. and instead of making roster changes to fit his system or style, they felt it was easier just to get rid of him.