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isiah's disadvantages/advantages
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TMS
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1/9/2007  10:34 AM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by misterearl:

djsu - what is mindboggling is the money being spent in Iraq

The Knicks payroll is pocket change

actually what's mindboggling is how dave justice did halle berry wrong. that's dude is nuts.

i'm sure if you're getting poon thrown at you everywhere you go (& i'm sure he got his fair share everywhere he went), it's easy to cheat on a hot chick, even if her name is Halle Berry.

right now he's probably regretting it though.

it ain't about cheating. the dude used to whoop her ass.

my bad, i'd always been made to believe it was because he'd cheated on her.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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misterearl
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1/9/2007  10:39 AM
>>Then why was Dolan complaining about Brown wanting to waive players and using it as one of the excuses for why he fired him?


Islesfan - hold up. Let's not mix issues or metaphors here. Dolan is a control freak. He could not control Marv Albert so he fired him. He could not control Camby and Spree so he had them traded. He has gone thorugh The Garden staff and cut at will.

Brown's issue was not wanting to waive players, it was insubordination. Dolan didn't like Larry Brown talking to other GMs as if he was in charge of transactions.

You can't have more than one chief and larry overstepped his boundaries. It was either him or Isiah and Isiah was the President of Basketball Ops. Isiah had tenure.

The choice, given the 23 wins and rebellious mood of the players, was simple and relatively easy.

besides, wealthy people don't mind spending money. It's what they do.

they hate spending money on dreck





once a knick always a knick
Queeniepop
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1/9/2007  10:41 AM
Misterearl- while I like your ever-enthusiastic optimism, Mr. DJsu understands that payroll is chump-change to the Knicks as is Bush's agenda of allocating tax-payers money to wage his war in Iraq. In fact, your argument parallels the worst president in US history, Mr. Bush, to the worst GM/PRES/Coach Zeke (who is not only those titles but a member too). Earl, you have underscored the frivolity of spending between both Pres. Bush and Pres. Zeke's regimes in the current 21st Century. Some advice- don't open yourself up for the type of scrutiny and sweeping retribution that fiscal irresponsibility in both politics and sports (which in this case is one and the same) that is forthcoming:

OPERATION ENDURING STARBURY
Marbury = 2 first round picks plus all exp. deals that would have shaved off heavy salary prior to his trade. Recall, we took on a boatload of salary by including Anfernee Hardaway in this trade.

Marbury is equivalent for our sweeping retribution for 9/11 by invading Afghanistan. Good idea at first, but this led to the demise of our cap and team as we took on the Axis of Evil. Ultimately Isiah's sordid war turned Penny in to Steve Francis as we moved in to Iraq, errr Orlando, which saw us surrender Trevor Ariza and take on $48M in salary or $96M in luxury tax for taking POW Francis and emancipating him to NY. That's mindboggling to say the least...Bush, I mean Isiah, engaged in the most incessant, self-indulgant trade for this guy. And yes, like the President of the Grand Ole Party, Isiah signed off on this trade. Guess, LB is Colin Powell.

And this is just the end of Isiah's mindboggling trades and fiscal ineptitude which ironically started with the first move he made (Marbury + Penny = Francis - Penny). If you'd like I can identify the other "hiccups" of the Isiah regime. Too bad the American people have no say in the election of Pres/GM/Coaches...I would say that Bush may have a better chance of winning over the Blue n' Orange states than Isiah.

The Zek-u-lator:

Marbury + Penny = Francis - Penny - Trevor - two first round picks + $48M
Mo Taylor = exp deals - 2 first rounders
Balkman = Jalen - AD + #20 + $16M
Malik = Nazr + $24M + #29 + #30
Q = bad back + bad attitude (nate) - KT + $32M

Dollars and SENSE!
izybx
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1/9/2007  10:43 AM
I really hate it when people put politics into talks about the Knicks.
Beat the Evil Empire. BEAT MIAMI
misterearl
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1/9/2007  10:43 AM
Queeniepop - the difference?

Public (government) versus private (Knicks) enterprise

It ain't your money
once a knick always a knick
Queeniepop
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1/9/2007  10:48 AM
Agreed, but you must understand the magnitude of fiscal irresponsibility of Isiah's regime. You can like the young dudes, you can like the ponies, lollypops, ice cream parties of Isiah, you can like all of those things. Isiah's management style of both personnel, salary and all of those other political "collective bargaining" type scenarios has made Isiah somewhat of a Machiavellian/totalitarian/Veruca Salt (but Daddy, I mean Dolan...I want a golden goose and I want it NOW) type of manager.

Funny...communists preach privatization. Hell, our colors arent red though (though red plus yellow = orange).



[Edited by - queeniepop on 01-09-2007 10:50 AM]
djsunyc
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1/9/2007  10:51 AM


what we have right here is a failure to communicate, you see...
Bippity10
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1/9/2007  12:37 PM
It is Dolan's money. But it's our GM that is wasting moves on players we don't need. MisterEArl the amount of players that we have bought out in the last 3 years doesn't bother you at all. Is it me or could that money and those roster spots could have been used on someone that could help us.
I just hope that people will like me
holfresh
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1/9/2007  1:08 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Queeniepop - the difference?

Public (government) versus private (Knicks) enterprise

It ain't your money

I always say this earl...people here are always worried about Dolan's wallet like it's theirs..I am happy that the Knicks owner is willing to spend.....If it get deadbeats off the team, I love it...
Just imagine if Steingrabber was tight fisted...
islesfan
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1/9/2007  1:20 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by misterearl:

Queeniepop - the difference?

Public (government) versus private (Knicks) enterprise

It ain't your money

I always say this earl...people here are always worried about Dolan's wallet like it's theirs..I am happy that the Knicks owner is willing to spend.....If it get deadbeats off the team, I love it...
Just imagine if Steingrabber was tight fisted...


Steinbrenners team plays in a league with no salary cap. Big difference.

When you have a salary cap that restricts your flexibility in obtaining players if you're over it, it's not just about whose money it is.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
holfresh
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1/9/2007  1:28 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by misterearl:

Queeniepop - the difference?

Public (government) versus private (Knicks) enterprise

It ain't your money

I always say this earl...people here are always worried about Dolan's wallet like it's theirs..I am happy that the Knicks owner is willing to spend.....If it get deadbeats off the team, I love it...
Just imagine if Steingrabber was tight fisted...


Steinbrenners team plays in a league with no salary cap. Big difference.

When you have a salary cap that restricts your flexibility in obtaining players if you're over it, it's not just about whose money it is.

When you are at 93 mil and over the cap and spend more money it makes no difference either...But you have a huge problem with that don't you...
Bippity10
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1/9/2007  1:32 PM
So i take it that the wasted moves are not a bother to anyone but me.
I just hope that people will like me
djsunyc
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1/9/2007  1:33 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by misterearl:

Queeniepop - the difference?

Public (government) versus private (Knicks) enterprise

It ain't your money

I always say this earl...people here are always worried about Dolan's wallet like it's theirs..I am happy that the Knicks owner is willing to spend.....If it get deadbeats off the team, I love it...
Just imagine if Steingrabber was tight fisted...


Steinbrenners team plays in a league with no salary cap. Big difference.

When you have a salary cap that restricts your flexibility in obtaining players if you're over it, it's not just about whose money it is.

When you are at 93 mil and over the cap and spend more money it makes no difference either...But you have a huge problem with that don't you...


in the most simplistic view, you're right. but you're not taking into account the difficulty of making deals when players make THAT much money. the opportunities for tweaks are quite minimal. the opportunities to acquire exactly what you need are not that great.

there's a DIFFERENCE trying to trade an $8 mil a year player, than a $5 mil a year player. especially when the player is not as good as their monetary amount.

francis @$15 mil is damn near impossible to trade.
but francis @$5 mil a year is VERY tradeable.

so in terms of SIGNING free agents, being $1 over the cap is the same as being $50 mil over the cap BUT making deals when players make less salary is infinitely easier than moving players with big contracts.
holfresh
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1/9/2007  1:35 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

So i take it that the wasted moves are not a bother to anyone but me.

Bip GMs are going to make good and bad moves...Lets just hope the good out weights(no pun JJ)the bad...We have a young core and by the time they matter for real all those bad moves will be a distant memory...This team is coming together...Thats the good...
djsunyc
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1/9/2007  1:40 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

So i take it that the wasted moves are not a bother to anyone but me.


the argument will be "hey, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette."

as well as "is the talent level better now than it was when layden was fired?"

but you know what, when layden took over, the team was a FINALS team as well as a perpetual playoff advancer. so it would be VERY difficult to upgrade the talent level from that team b/c better talent isn't all that readily available.

not to mention that the team was still good enough to win enough games to leave you with a bad pick.

so layden's opportunity to UPGRADE talent from an already winning team was difficult to do.

so layden got 4 years while his vets started getting older and worse. so isiah comes in, replaces them with some sizzle. and now the talent level is higher.

and layden was one of the worst gm's of all time. but it's not like HE had an ideal situation either. especially with patrick demanding to be traded and dolan obliging. and the already agreed upon $100 mil deal before he took over. so layden TOO was behind the 8 ball. he chose to go the veteran route to keep the team in the playoffs while searching for a franchise guy. he swung for the fences in dice...and struck out.

he had 2 lottery picks in his time here. one he traded in the dice deal. the other one he used on sweets. and looking at the 2004 draft, after #8 (hinrich), the draft was relatively weak till josh howard at #30.

i'm not trying to defend layden but i'm trying to say that he didn't have a great opportunity to fix things either and he didn't spend $122 mil to end up with renaldo balkman.
holfresh
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1/9/2007  1:41 PM
DJ is understand all that but really when you are trading from a position of weakness as Isiah was when he got here something has to give...If you are over the salary cap and have aging ineffective players you MUST take back bad contracts to get younger and to get draft picks...He hasn't had the luxury of trading from a position of strength..Now you can talk about the MLE signing and JJ was not a good move at all... The team has a young core and seems to be ready to go forward...When are we going to get over that signing of JJ...



[Edited by - holfresh on 01-09-2007 1:42 PM]
djsunyc
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1/9/2007  1:47 PM
Posted by holfresh:

DJ is understand all that but really when you are trading from a position of weakness as Isiah was when he got here something has to give...If you are over the salary cap and have aging ineffective players you MUST take back bad contracts to get younger and to get draft picks...He hasn't had the luxury of trading from a position of strength..Now you can talk about the MLE signing and JJ was not a good move at all... The team has a young core and seems to be ready to go forward...When are we going to get over that signing of JJ...

no doubt isiah was behind an even BIGGER 8ball. BUT i don't agree with what you said:
If you are over the salary cap and have aging ineffective players you MUST take back bad contracts to get younger and to get draft picks

considering we've been seeing picks in the 20's sold for basically cash, then i don't agree with that. he got rid of his first rounder in 2004 (without trying to recoup it). his only lottery pick was frye. the rest of the picks, in the 20's quite possibly could've been purchased.

there was another way to do it...to get us exactly to the same point we are today in terms of youthful talent AND a TON of cap room coming up.

so now we have some youthful talent but without any of the cap room or higher picks coming up to ADD to that youthful talent. we're left with MLE's and late first rounders (more role players)...when what this team needs is a franchise stud (the only real way to win a title).
fishmike
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1/9/2007  1:51 PM
Posted by misterearl:

>>That would bring it to $150 mil for just the last 5 months.

So what?

People despise Dolan, right? Dolan is an idiot. Dolan sucks, right?

Dolan is rich beyond our imagination. Why not thank Isiah for spending more of Dolan's cable lunch money, not less of it. I could care less about the payroll... I want the Knicks to improve.

If spending Dolan's chedda is what it requires to turn over the dreck, and stupendous salaries left by Checketts and Layden, then why the sudden sympathy for Dolan's checkbook balance?

Read my lips

It ain't my money
misterearl... you never get these arguments. You always say its about the money. We dont care about Dolan's cash. Nobody here does. But there is a collective bargaining agreement that limits what NBA teams can spend, and how they make trade. So DJ lists how Isiah essentially spent $100 mill and got nothing back. Its getting nothing back that sucks. Spending money represents and opportunity. Take the Marbury trade. Not a good one IMO but AT LEAST in taking back all that money Isiah got an all star player back in his prime.

So Isiah's overspending with nothing to show for it represents a failed opportunity to improve the team. It would be no different than if he drafted a bust or signed a FA that was a bust.


"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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1/9/2007  1:56 PM
earl, you are bruce lee in this thread:



[Edited by - djsunyc on 01-09-2007 1:56 PM]
fishmike
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1/9/2007  1:58 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by Bippity10:

So i take it that the wasted moves are not a bother to anyone but me.

Bip GMs are going to make good and bad moves...Lets just hope the good out weights(no pun JJ)the bad...We have a young core and by the time they matter for real all those bad moves will be a distant memory...This team is coming together...Thats the good...

your wrong on both your points. Had Isiah not brought in all his high priced guys and spent spent spent on players who had never won anything at the NBA level would be $25mm under the cap after this season.

Not all GMs make bad moves. There's a difference between making a move that doesnt work out and a bad move. Trading for a perenial all star in his prime and a proven winner like Grant Hill isnt a bad move. You cant control injuries... it just didnt work out.

Give a fat loser like JJ a 5 year contract is a bad move. Givin up unprotected picks for a guy who's own team isnt bringing back is a bad move. Following a "mandate" to win by overpaying for guys who have never won is a bad plan.

There is a difference, you just refuse to see it.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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