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It doesn't matter if Lee starts?
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Bonn1997
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1/7/2007  4:36 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by bigbeast:

Holfresh, youbeat me to it. Its ironic that Bonn of all people is using stats to back up his Lee theory. Yet, Bonn, you're the main one saying that Curry's offensive output is null and void because he does nothing on the defensive end.

Bonn, spin explain this.... They are 6-2 when Curry scores 25 or more points

[Edited by - bigbeast on 01-07-2007 4:15 PM]

[Edited by - bigbeast on 01-07-2007 4:15 PM]

explain why after 30 whatever games we are - with Curry on the floor.

explain why after 30 whatever games we are +13 with Lee on the court. I can see why Isiah would want to limit his minutes

It's simple. Curry's positives are cancelled out by his negatives. The team plays with much more energy and hustle with him on the bench and they play better defense with him on the bench. It's scary that the team is actually better with our "franchise player" on the bench. I don't think that applies to any other franchise players.
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Bonn1997
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1/7/2007  4:37 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Here you go Bonn. I'm not sure how confusing it will read b/c I don't know how this will turn out after I post it, but the last stat says how many points he scored in that game.

Based on those stats, he's scoring well against good teams and good frontcourts. We HAVE TO give Curry that kind of credit. That's where his improvement is coming. Another thing he needs to work on is his passing, but I also think that his assists are up slightly from last year, and based on my own 2 eyes, from watching the games, he's showing some improvement passing out of the doubles. So lets give Curry some credit there.

However, some other striking things are his rebounding and shotblocking numbers. There were 3 five game periods (At least 5 games I should say) where he went without a single blocked shot. His low rebounding number are pretty strikingly poor too. He should be AT LEAST as good as David Lee, just from boxing out. However, he's not, so I think it's purely an effort issue with Curry and he hasn't been giving it on defense and the boards.

Regular Season FG 3PT FT Rebounds Misc
Date Opponent Score GS Min M A Pct M A Pct M A Pct Off Def Tot Ast TO Stl Blk PF Pts
Jan 5 @ SEA W 111-93 1 30:36 9 9 100.0 0 0 0.0 9 12 75.0 3 3 6 2 3 0 1 1 27
Jan 3 @ POR W 99-81 1 39:16 11 17 64.7 0 0 0.0 5 8 62.5 2 8 10 0 2 1 2 1 27
Jan 2 @ SAC L 100-112 1 36:53 7 9 77.8 0 0 0.0 5 10 50.0 3 3 6 0 5 0 2 3 19
Date Opponent Score GS Min M A Pct M A Pct M A Pct Off Def Tot Ast TO Stl Blk PF Pts
Dec 31 @ LAC L 80-90 1 32:30 5 13 38.5 0 0 0.0 5 7 71.4 2 3 5 1 0 0 0 1 15
Dec 29 @ PHO L 86-108 1 35:20 7 11 63.6 0 0 0.0 5 8 62.5 3 7 10 0 3 1 2 2 19
Dec 27 DET W 151-145 1 53:50 11 15 73.3 0 0 0.0 11 15 73.3 4 3 7 1 4 0 1 0 33
Dec 23 @ PHI L 77-98 1 30:04 3 9 33.3 0 0 0.0 2 5 40.0 1 6 7 1 2 1 0 2 8
Dec 22 CHI W 103-92 1 35:50 9 17 52.9 0 0 0.0 2 5 40.0 4 2 6 0 3 0 0 5 20
Dec 20 CHA W 111-109 1 46:52 11 15 73.3 0 0 0.0 7 12 58.3 6 3 9 1 3 0 0 5 29
Dec 18 UTH W 97-96 1 22:06 4 8 50.0 0 0 0.0 0 0 0.0 1 2 3 0 4 1 0 5 8
Dec 16 DEN L 100-123 1 26:41 6 10 60.0 0 0 0.0 7 11 63.6 1 2 3 0 4 0 0 3 19
Dec 15 @ IND L 96-112 1 27:05 3 6 50.0 0 0 0.0 4 5 80.0 1 2 3 1 5 1 0 3 10
Dec 13 ATL W 94-82 1 34:06 7 13 53.9 0 0 0.0 6 10 60.0 2 7 9 1 2 0 1 2 20
Dec 11 BOS L 90-97 1 43:59 11 22 50.0 0 0 0.0 8 15 53.3 6 6 12 2 3 0 2 4 30
Dec 9 MIL W 115-107 1 40:02 17 24 70.8 0 0 0.0 2 3 66.7 4 5 9 1 6 2 3 4 36
Dec 6 WAS L 102-113 1 35:19 9 17 52.9 0 0 0.0 4 8 50.0 7 4 11 2 5 2 2 3 22
Dec 4 MEM W 98-90 1 41:56 9 13 69.2 0 0 0.0 8 13 61.5 3 12 15 2 4 0 0 6 26
Dec 2 TOR L 100-103 1 41:07 10 18 55.6 0 0 0.0 7 11 63.6 6 6 12 1 3 2 1 4 27
Dec 1 @ DET L 100-108 1 31:16 9 15 60.0 0 0 0.0 6 12 50.0 3 2 5 0 3 0 1 3 24
Date Opponent Score GS Min M A Pct M A Pct M A Pct Off Def Tot Ast TO Stl Blk PF Pts
Nov 29 @ CLE W 101-98 1 37:11 7 12 58.3 0 0 0.0 10 15 66.7 0 5 5 1 4 1 0 4 24
Nov 28 @ CHI L 85-102 1 39:34 10 15 66.7 0 0 0.0 4 8 50.0 1 7 8 0 4 0 0 1 24
Nov 25 CHI L 95-106 1 38:52 8 16 50.0 0 0 0.0 4 12 33.3 2 4 6 1 3 0 1 5 20
Nov 24 @ BOS W 101-77 1 30:25 8 12 66.7 0 0 0.0 5 11 45.5 3 7 10 1 3 0 0 5 21
Nov 22 @ MIN L 89-107 1 30:18 6 11 54.6 0 0 0.0 2 2 100.0 1 6 7 0 2 0 0 4 14
Nov 20 HOU L 90-97 1 21:05 3 10 30.0 0 0 0.0 2 4 50.0 1 1 2 0 4 1 0 4 8
Nov 18 BOS L 118-122 1 21:21 2 9 22.2 0 0 0.0 3 4 75.0 2 5 7 0 1 0 0 1 7
Nov 17 @ MIA W 100-76 1 28:34 6 8 75.0 0 0 0.0 1 1 100.0 1 4 5 0 4 0 0 3 13
Nov 15 WAS W 102-82 1 31:38 4 6 66.7 0 0 0.0 5 10 50.0 0 6 6 2 3 0 1 2 13
Nov 13 CLE L 96-102 1 33:13 5 9 55.6 0 0 0.0 3 4 75.0 3 4 7 1 2 0 0 3 13
Nov 11 @ SAS L 92-100 1 31:17 5 9 55.6 0 0 0.0 5 9 55.6 3 4 7 0 5 1 0 5 15
Nov 10 @ HOU L 94-103 1 22:10 2 11 18.2 0 0 0.0 3 4 75.0 1 4 5 0 1 0 0 4 7
Nov 8 @ DEN W 109-107 1 13:22 1 2 50.0 0 0 0.0 2 4 50.0 1 1 2 1 3 0 0 5 4
Nov 6 SAS L 93-105 1 27:49 4 9 44.4 0 0 0.0 5 8 62.5 2 9 11 0 5 0 0 3 13
Nov 4 IND L 95-109 1 38:42 10 20 50.0 0 0 0.0 2 5 40.0 1 5 6 0 1 0 0 4 22
Nov 3 @ ATL L 92-102 1 39:21 9 13 69.2 0 0 0.0 2 5 40.0 1 1 2 1 3 0 0 5 20
Nov 1 @ MEM W 118-117 1 41:25 8 13 61.5 0 0 0.0 1 2 50.0 3 11 14 1 5 1 3 6 17
Total 36 33:36 256 446 57.4 0 0 0.0 162 278 58.3 88 170 258 25 117 15 23 121 674


[Edited by - Allanfan20 on 01-07-2007 4:27 PM]
I'm too lazy to actually look up how many of the opponents in those 18 games were above .500.
Allanfan20
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1/7/2007  4:38 PM
Holfresh, you are once again saying why the Knicks have been so bad the past couple of years. You say, as Curry and Marbury play well, then the Knicks play well. Problem is, they generally don't both play well in the same game, and they don't play well on both ends of the court, and to top it off, their overall play has been flat out lousy at times. Hence, the Knicks crappiness.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Allanfan20
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1/7/2007  4:41 PM
Bonn, Chicago, Detroit and Indiana (In a bad loss)
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
bigbeast
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1/7/2007  5:03 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by bigbeast:

Holfresh, youbeat me to it. Its ironic that Bonn of all people is using stats to back up his Lee theory. Yet, Bonn, you're the main one saying that Curry's offensive output is null and void because he does nothing on the defensive end.

Bonn, spin explain this.... They are 6-2 when Curry scores 25 or more points

[Edited by - bigbeast on 01-07-2007 4:15 PM]

[Edited by - bigbeast on 01-07-2007 4:15 PM]

explain why after 30 whatever games we are - with Curry on the floor.

explain why after 30 whatever games we are +13 with Lee on the court. I can see why Isiah would want to limit his minutes

It's simple. Curry's positives are cancelled out by his negatives. The team plays with much more energy and hustle with him on the bench and they play better defense with him on the bench. It's scary that the team is actually better with our "franchise player" on the bench. I don't think that applies to any other franchise players.

Yeah, we looked pathetic when Curry was scoring at will on Seattle's front line, while Bob Hill shuffled in everyone short of the ball boy to try and stop Curry. And craw and Marbs looked dreadful while getting all those open looks due to Curry getting double and triple teamed.

And Lee and Jeffries look awful when they get the opportunity to freelance for offensive rebounds when they are left by thier man because Fat-Eddy for some reason keeps drawing all this attention.

Dont forget that detriot game when Eddy lazily scored 21 in the first half which clearly helped us win. Or how about when Eddy methodically dominated Ben Wallace in their head to head matcu ups.

I totally see your point Bonn. Eddy is a detriment and needs to be traded for Jason Collins ASAP
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
holfresh
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1/7/2007  5:04 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Holfresh, you are once again saying why the Knicks have been so bad the past couple of years. You say, as Curry and Marbury play well, then the Knicks play well. Problem is, they generally don't both play well in the same game, and they don't play well on both ends of the court, and to top it off, their overall play has been flat out lousy at times. Hence, the Knicks crappiness.

The last game really doesn't help your argument...the game against Detroit doesn't help your argument either...

Sure they have been lousy, they have been good as well...The Challenge is to be consistent and turn this into a winner...But the way, the last two season when the Knicks were bad...Which team was David Lee playing for???
Bonn1997
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1/7/2007  5:08 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by bigbeast:

Holfresh, youbeat me to it. Its ironic that Bonn of all people is using stats to back up his Lee theory. Yet, Bonn, you're the main one saying that Curry's offensive output is null and void because he does nothing on the defensive end.

Bonn, spin explain this.... They are 6-2 when Curry scores 25 or more points

[Edited by - bigbeast on 01-07-2007 4:15 PM]

[Edited by - bigbeast on 01-07-2007 4:15 PM]

explain why after 30 whatever games we are - with Curry on the floor.

explain why after 30 whatever games we are +13 with Lee on the court. I can see why Isiah would want to limit his minutes

It's simple. Curry's positives are cancelled out by his negatives. The team plays with much more energy and hustle with him on the bench and they play better defense with him on the bench. It's scary that the team is actually better with our "franchise player" on the bench. I don't think that applies to any other franchise players.

Yeah, we looked pathetic when Curry was scoring at will on Seattle's front line, while Bob Hill shuffled in everyone short of the ball boy to try and stop Curry. And craw and Marbs looked dreadful while getting all those open looks due to Curry getting double and triple teamed.

And Lee and Jeffries look awful when they get the opportunity to freelance for offensive rebounds when they are left by thier man because Fat-Eddy for some reason keeps drawing all this attention.

Dont forget that detriot game when Eddy lazily scored 21 in the first half which clearly helped us win. Or how about when Eddy methodically dominated Ben Wallace in their head to head matcu ups.

I totally see your point Bonn. Eddy is a detriment and needs to be traded for Jason Collins ASAP

If you want to rely on anecdotal evidence from 3 games out of 40, you'll be able to make an argument for almost any point. That's not compelling.
bigbeast
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1/7/2007  5:55 PM
Bottom line, Curry's recent individual improvement, has improved or at least has made room for improvement for every individual player on this team and in turn has made the team better.

Curry's presence and the attention he draws opens up the floor for what everyone does best. The doubling and sometimes tripling up on Curry allows Lee to freelance on offense and get critical offensive rebounds. Curry's presence allows Lee to spot up and take uncontested set-shots if he chooses. He also gives Lee a target underneath fro those crafty interior passes that Lee is so good at.

Curry opnes up the floor for Craw. On the kick back to the perimeter, Craw usually is open for an uncontested jumper or sees defenders flying at him as they try and recover from the doubling up of Curry. Any defender flying at Craw is at his mercy because Craw is crafty with the ball and will snap a crossover or hesitation at the unbalanced defender to get by him or stroke an open jay. (by the way, Jamal was able to hoist 26 shot the other day only because of Curry's presence). Jamal and Curry also play an awseome 2-man game with the alley oops etc.

Marbs is freed up on the perimeter as well and similar to Craw has defenders flying at him to recover a defensive stance as the ball swings around. If we had a spot shooter at the 3, he would benefit tremndously as well. How many times has the ball swung from Curry as he's doubled and ends up in Jeffries hands, wide open to clank a three. Its because of Curry that he is wide open. Curry can only start the ball in motion, can't ask him to make the basket for Jeffries aswell, despite him being wide open.

LAST 23 games Curry is averaging 22 pts per. I picked 23 because thats when Curry said he started to play with the confidence (around the Chi game).

If he can improve offensively as he has over the past 23 games, dont tell me this guy is still lazy. Dont tell me he doesn't care when he's blamming himself for losses that clearly wasn't his fault. And I do see effort on the defensive end. He's trying and is getting better. Curry is far from a finished product.

"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
babyKnicks
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1/7/2007  6:53 PM
Posted by bigbeast:

Bottom line, Curry's recent individual improvement, has improved or at least has made room for improvement for every individual player on this team and in turn has made the team better.

Curry's presence and the attention he draws opens up the floor for what everyone does best. The doubling and sometimes tripling up on Curry allows Lee to freelance on offense and get critical offensive rebounds. Curry's presence allows Lee to spot up and take uncontested set-shots if he chooses. He also gives Lee a target underneath fro those crafty interior passes that Lee is so good at.

Curry opnes up the floor for Craw. On the kick back to the perimeter, Craw usually is open for an uncontested jumper or sees defenders flying at him as they try and recover from the doubling up of Curry. Any defender flying at Craw is at his mercy because Craw is crafty with the ball and will snap a crossover or hesitation at the unbalanced defender to get by him or stroke an open jay. (by the way, Jamal was able to hoist 26 shot the other day only because of Curry's presence). Jamal and Curry also play an awseome 2-man game with the alley oops etc.

Marbs is freed up on the perimeter as well and similar to Craw has defenders flying at him to recover a defensive stance as the ball swings around. If we had a spot shooter at the 3, he would benefit tremndously as well. How many times has the ball swung from Curry as he's doubled and ends up in Jeffries hands, wide open to clank a three. Its because of Curry that he is wide open. Curry can only start the ball in motion, can't ask him to make the basket for Jeffries aswell, despite him being wide open.

LAST 23 games Curry is averaging 22 pts per. I picked 23 because thats when Curry said he started to play with the confidence (around the Chi game).

If he can improve offensively as he has over the past 23 games, dont tell me this guy is still lazy. Dont tell me he doesn't care when he's blamming himself for losses that clearly wasn't his fault. And I do see effort on the defensive end. He's trying and is getting better. Curry is far from a finished product.

great post!
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
TMS
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1/8/2007  11:51 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I here the argument all the time that it doesn't matter if he starts so long as he's playing starter's minutes. Well, as a bench player he's averaging only 27, which is definitely not enough for our best player to get. Some other interesting notes:
In team wins, Lee gets plays 33.3 mpg. In losses, 28.0.
When Lee gets 30+ min, the team is 9-7. When he gets less than 30 mpg, the team is 6-14.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?statsId=3956


those are some very interesting stats Bonn... so we're a winning team when Lee gets minutes, & a losing team when he doesn't... doesn't seem like there's that much to think about here, does it? start David Lee for cripes sakes! what the hell is the holdup???!!!
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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1/8/2007  12:08 PM
Yeah, I mean 9-7 vs. 6-14 is a GIGANTIC differenc
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