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Marcus Williams vs. Renaldo Balkman - Who's really better.
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joec32033
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1/7/2007  10:11 AM
Frye is 23, 24 in May
http://www1.realgm.com/src_playerfile.php?playerid=1088

Lee is 23, 24 in April
http://www1.realgm.com/src_playerfile.php?playerid=1080

but point taken.
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Nalod
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1/7/2007  10:27 AM
Posted by misterearl:

>>Isiah has no faith in the process of youth.

Nalod - say what?

No faith in "The process" of youth?

Frye is 22. Lee is 22. Balkman is 22. Nate - 22. Collins 22. Curry is 24. Jeffries is 27. Quentin is only 27. It would appear the process is already underway as most of these players are getting minutes.

what process are you referring to?

my point was that isiah covers hiimself with high priced FA's and not have faith in HIS picks. Isiah then has to play them and not allow a full youth movement. We did not need jeffries, we have it covered. We did not need Jerome, we had butler. We did not need francis, we could have had Williams. I know Im forshadowing in hindsight (cool) but If Isiah had more faith in himself, he would not pay up on these guys.

I like Balkman, but I'd rather have Reezy and williams and no Francis.

I would rather have Jackie Blue as my back up then Jerome.

And look at the financial ramifictions of it all. It don't get us at the cap, but its a step in the right direction.

Even when Isiah is good, he phucks it up!
joec32033
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1/7/2007  10:32 AM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by misterearl:

>>Isiah has no faith in the process of youth.

Nalod - say what?

No faith in "The process" of youth?

Frye is 22. Lee is 22. Balkman is 22. Nate - 22. Collins 22. Curry is 24. Jeffries is 27. Quentin is only 27. It would appear the process is already underway as most of these players are getting minutes.

what process are you referring to?

my point was that isiah covers hiimself with high priced FA's and not have faith in HIS picks. Isiah then has to play them and not allow a full youth movement. We did not need jeffries, we have it covered. We did not need Jerome, we had butler. We did not need francis, we could have had Williams. I know Im forshadowing in hindsight (cool) but If Isiah had more faith in himself, he would not pay up on these guys.

I like Balkman, but I'd rather have Reezy and williams and no Francis.

I would rather have Jackie Blue as my back up then Jerome.

And look at the financial ramifictions of it all. It don't get us at the cap, but its a step in the right direction.

Even when Isiah is good, he phucks it up!

Nalod, I agree 100%. I said virtually the exact same thing in this thread (http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=19234&page=1) yesterday.
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misterearl
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1/7/2007  11:03 AM
JoeC - thank you for correct ages of Knicks yoots


>>my point was that isiah covers hiimself with high priced FA's and not have faith in HIS picks.


Nalod - that is complete and utter BS

Check out the numbers on one pick Isiah has "no faith in" as you claim

(courtesy of my man rembee)

David Lee has played just 40 minutes under his season total last year.

More total minutes (by a comfortable advantage) than anyone else on the team save Crawford, Marbury and Curry.

He already has 30 more field goal attempts than all of last year with 23 more field goals.

4 more steals.

17 more assists.

40 more points.

81 more rebounds than his total last year.



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babyKnicks
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1/7/2007  11:24 AM
marcus williams is better than renaldo balkman.

Renaldo balkman is better than marcus williams...FOR THE KNICKS.
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izybx
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1/7/2007  11:29 AM
I think a better question would be, Ariza vs. Renaldo Balkman- whos really better.
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babyKnicks
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1/7/2007  11:39 AM
currently Ariza, but last year, you said he couldn't dribble with his head up...so hindsight being 20/20. Ofcourse, Ariza, but most of us LOVED ariza and blame Larry Brown for him not being a knick.

Had we not traded ariza for francis (a move at the time I stupidly felt was a good at the time) we could have drafted marcus williams no trouble as we would not have had francis.

But, ofcourse, I blame larry brown for that. (dillusional).

Isiah discovered Ariza when we only had one second round pick.

To even consider Ariza not being here a knock on isiah is being Berman-esque.
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TheGame
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1/7/2007  1:41 PM
I still would take Balkman over Ariza. Ariza has improved in his 3rd year, but he is still barely better than Balkman, who is a rookie. I think Balkman is quicker, has a better handle, is a better rebounder, and a better shot-blocker. If Balkman develops a jumpshot, there will be no comparison.
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technomaster
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1/7/2007  2:51 PM
Well, Balkman (5/14/84) is older than Ariza (5/30/85) by a little over a year. Balkman has already shown the potential to become an NBA journeyman... so has Ariza.

Both of them, if they stopped developing, could easily have long careers as Shandon Anderson type journeyman swingmen. In a better case scenario, maybe they'll achieve levels of Josh Howard or Tayshaun Prince, both relatively late bloomers.

Regarding Marcus vs Renaldo, MW hasn't been given a true opportunity for his own star to shine- he's playing on the same backcourt as a top-3 PG over the last decade, and a top 5 SG over the same span. Those are 2 players who absolutely cannot (and probably should not) change their games to accommodate a rookie.
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TMS
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1/8/2007  11:48 AM
1 of the main complaints people have had on this board is that we are lacking in a defensive minded pass first PG & yet people consistently bemoan the fact that the Knicks passed on a defensively weak shooting PG & took an athletic defensive minded player who can rebound & block shots.

this debate is always good for a monday morning chuckle.
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djsunyc
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1/8/2007  11:51 AM
i think that if a point guard can run an offense, then you can overlook his defensive inefficiencies. the guy is getting 4 other people involved.
Solace
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1/8/2007  12:07 PM
Posted by TMS:

1 of the main complaints people have had on this board is that we are lacking in a defensive minded pass first PG & yet people consistently bemoan the fact that the Knicks passed on a defensively weak shooting PG & took an athletic defensive minded player who can rebound & block shots.

this debate is always good for a monday morning chuckle.

If we didn't need him, we probably could've traded him for two late first round picks (like the Nets picks), instead of taking Balkman too high. The fact that people don't account for draft value at all is kinda worth a chuckle, too. It's not that Isiah didn't get a good player, it's that Isiah did what he always does: overpay. Take into account that that pick cost the Knicks $34 million. Foolish move by Isiah, but he "got his guy", even though it was a reach, just like he did with Frye, Nate, etc... so I guess it's okay.

Anyway, this topic is dry and boring at this point. Thinking of us having gotten Marcus Williams would've been a nice thing, but he's a Net and will seriously help that organization. We have Balkman. Let's move on.
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playa2
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1/8/2007  12:11 PM
Posted by rojasmas:

Marcus Williams is no Deron Williams.

Deron's rookie yr hmmm.... I would say Marcus Williams is better.

JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
TMS
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1/8/2007  12:21 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by TMS:

1 of the main complaints people have had on this board is that we are lacking in a defensive minded pass first PG & yet people consistently bemoan the fact that the Knicks passed on a defensively weak shooting PG & took an athletic defensive minded player who can rebound & block shots.

this debate is always good for a monday morning chuckle.

If we didn't need him, we probably could've traded him for two late first round picks (like the Nets picks), instead of taking Balkman too high. The fact that people don't account for draft value at all is kinda worth a chuckle, too. It's not that Isiah didn't get a good player, it's that Isiah did what he always does: overpay. Take into account that that pick cost the Knicks $34 million. Foolish move by Isiah, but he "got his guy", even though it was a reach, just like he did with Frye, Nate, etc... so I guess it's okay.

Anyway, this topic is dry and boring at this point. Thinking of us having gotten Marcus Williams would've been a nice thing, but he's a Net and will seriously help that organization. We have Balkman. Let's move on.

again, where are you getting this fantasy notion that we would have been able to trade him for 2 late 1st rounders when he wasn't even taken until the #22 pick in the draft? does that make sense to you Solace? cuz it sure as hell doesn't make sense to me... when 21 other NBA GM's passed on this guy, what on God's green earth would give u the impression that the other 7 GM's who picked after the Nets did would've given you 2 late 1st rounders for him (if they even had 2 late 1st rounders to trade)? just more speculation that's completely unfounded... all these "woulda's, shoulda's, coulda's" are good for internet forum fodder, but let's try & deal in reality here... the Knicks picked the guy who made the most sense for their franchise & filled the biggest needs... case closed... all the talk about Balkman still being on the boards at #30 is just more speculation for the supposed "experts" to talk about til the cows come home... me personally, i'm not an expert... i form my opinions based on stuff that actually happens... & to me, Balkman has been a welcome addition to this franchise & well worth the pick we took him with.

sorry, just re-read that post & i don't mean to come off as an a-hole to you bro... just saying i'm sick of all the speculation based debates.


[Edited by - TMS on 01-08-2007 1:44 PM]
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izybx
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1/8/2007  12:31 PM
again, where are you getting this fantasy notion that we would have been able to trade him for 2 late 1st rounders when he wasn't even taken until the #22 pick in the draft? does that make sense to you Solace? cuz it sure as hell doesn't make sense to me... when 21 other NBA GM's passed on this guy, what on God's green earth would give u the impression that the other 7 GM's who picked after the Nets did would've given you 2 late 1st rounders for him (if they even had 2 late 1st rounders to trade)? just more speculation that's completely unfounded... all these "woulda's, shoulda's, coulda's" are good for internet forum fodder, but let's try & deal in reality here... the Knicks picked the guy who made the most sense for their franchise & filled the biggest needs... case closed... all the talk about Balkman still being on the boards at #30 is just more speculation for the supposed "experts" to talk about til the cows come home... me personally, i'm not an expert... i form my opinions based on stuff that actually happens... & to me, Balkman has been a welcome addition to this franchise & well worth the pick we took him with.

I always said when arguing about this with people," dont you think Isiah realized that Balkman could be available with our later pick? Dont you think it crossed his mind!" If Isiah thought the guy he wanted might not be available then who are we to doubt him? This guy probably put in hundereds of hours scouting players and recieved intelligence about other teams intentions that the media will never hear about. So if the guy that he wanted NEEDED to be scooped up with an early pick, then I trust that Isiah (who we all agree knows how to draft) made the right decision.
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NumberTwoPencil
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1/8/2007  12:48 PM
Williams, duh, is playing behind Kidd. That kinda limits his minutes and his role on the team. I've watched him a few times and while he's raw, he looks like a keeper, probably a starter in a year or two. Balkman might develop into a workable role player, it's hard to tell right now. I like them both but I think Williams was the steal.
Bippity10
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1/8/2007  1:25 PM
I love Balkman but I think at some point we are going to have to find a young PG to grow with Eddie.
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izybx
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1/8/2007  1:43 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I love Balkman but I think at some point we are going to have to find a young PG to grow with Eddie.

I agree, but I dont get the impression that M Williams is this once in a lifetime point guard. I think that in almost every drafy there will be equivalent players. Granted, the same can be said about balkman. At the very least, I dont think that it was that terrible of a decision by IT
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martin
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1/8/2007  1:55 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I love Balkman but I think at some point we are going to have to find a young PG to grow with Eddie.

Collins? Could be a 2-3 year grooming process for him too with Marbury around.
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TMS
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1/8/2007  2:05 PM
Jamal has a definite synergy playing w/Curry... i would really like to give him the PG duties over the long term & see what those 2 could do growing w/each other... put a defensive G to pair w/Jamal in the backcourt who can hit the open shot... Marbury's playing well right now, it might not be too late to trade him for something of worth... it's a huge longshot obviously, but who knows... if a team gets desperate enough, like the TWolves, then maybe you can cut a deal & get a couple picks in the process? we'd obviously be taking on garbage contracts in return, but as long as the cap hits are similar, i think it's worth it.
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