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enough! end this! do something or lose something, like your job, isiah!
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BlueSeats
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1/4/2007  11:14 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
what i've said and what many others have said is that frye AND curry in the starting lineup just doesn't work. we need to pick one and trade the other b/c moving one to the bench would be a waste.


I hear what you are saying, and it certainly makes sense with regard to defense and rebounding - if Eddy wont give you that you've got to get it from somewhere. But I'm even talking about the offensive structure.

Now I have to admit I'm messing around in the game threads most night where I don't get to watch the game all that closely, but it just seems to me that last year Frye was setting up on the high blocks more and shooting from a range of, say, 18 feet and in, while this year most of his shots come from just inside the arc, at about 22 feet. That might be just outside his "pure" range.

I understand Isiah wanting to spread the defense, cuz the worst thing for Curry is to get mauled by doubles, but when you have a rugged, interior, cleanup guy next to Eddy it doesn't really serve him better. It's easier for a guy to double off a low offense guy like lee than a midrange utilized Frye. So offensively Eddy is better served with Frye, but at the right range Frye can be served by it as well.

Last year I also saw Frye taking two or three dribbles on the way to the basket. That's again something he can do from the high blocks, but not from the arc. And many times last year I saw Frye the beneficiary as a trailer on a fast break play. He was one of the kids off the bench
who'd RUN us back into games. This year he's never in the uptempo mix.

On the defensive end, I think Frye is the kind of guy who will play tough on D when he's playing touch on O. When he's in close on offense, bumping, rubbing, sweating, grinding (don't get horny on me) he'll give you that back on D too. He'll be involved. But when he's out there floating and avoiding contact on offense that's what you'll get on D too.

I don't know, I don't have it figured out, but I know it ain't right - and it could be better, and it has been better.
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EnySpree
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1/4/2007  11:32 PM
I don't think comparing Houston to frye is stupid. Of course Houston was this and that but the fact still remains that neither does much of anything else except shoot. When they are off they have zero impact on the game.

Kinda what you eluded to. Right ms?

Still the writing is on the court now to what this team needs. Now its a matter of what isiah is gonna do. Will he fix the obvious or will he stuck to his guns and not deviate from the plan he set forth in his mind.
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arkrud
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1/4/2007  11:35 PM
Why not to have Frye to come of the bench to backup center position?
Lee will start and Frye will come when eddy is tired or get into foul trouble.
It looks logical. Frye is young player and it is OK for him to come from the bench.
I think it will be wery good for his development.
But this is in fantasy world.

In reality IT is afraid if Lee will statr consistantly and suddenly improve his offensive game (for example will add consistent jumper to his rebounding, passing, and scoring around the bascet) it will became clear who is our best player.
And it will became clear that IT is no more that lucky draft gambler and is big "0" on everything else.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
EnySpree
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1/5/2007  12:14 AM
Right now fryes trade value is high. He still has the potential of getting better. Teams are still trying to build and find that young stud to bank the next few years on. The knicks have 2. Lee complements the team and especially curry and marbs and craw.

I said before that Q could be that guy but he needs to be reliable health wise.

Anyway, with frye, can the knicks make a trade with to get a equally up and coming guy on a rookie contract.

Am I smokin crack thinking a dude like Danny granger? Indiana has too much swingmen and just went ahead and drafted another one this past draft.
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BlueSeats
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1/5/2007  12:52 AM
Posted by EnySpree:
Lee complements the team and especially curry and marbs and craw.

This is the attitude that maybe one takes if they're in the playoffs and want to try to get over the hump and win it all. And even then it's suspect. Think Portland trading Jermaine for Dale Davis.

But why the heck are we in a rush to compliment guys like Marbury and Crawford when those are the guys we should be most anxious to move?

Obviously, if one thinks "what you see is what you'll get" from Frye you move him for a need, but if one thinks he has a considerably higher ceiling than he's playing to, which I do, there's no hurry to make that final assessment just so you can get to 40 wins. I'd rather just stay bad another year and draw from the lottery next year while developing our frontcourt. It may not be pretty, but it's better than being overly hasty and complaining that we traded Ariza and Frye, two of the guys who used to hustle us back into the games our starters threw away, and wishing we had them back.
EnySpree
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1/5/2007  4:24 AM
The knicks need frye. They need his jumpshooting. That's where the hate for me comes from. He also has more fire towards the refs than to his apponent. Again if his jumper isn't there does he impact the game at all? No he doesn't. Now frye isn't 18. He hasn't gotten better at all from year 1. Could he get better? I don't care. Same way I don't care about ariza cause he still can't dribble or take his man off the dribble.

Another thing, the knicks are trying to build a team. Everyone might want to trade marbs but it just aint gonna happen. So he has to be here. Craw can be moved but when the dude is playing as good as he does why trade him? The guy has been carrying the team. He needs more help.

Again Q brings that help the knicks need but the knicks need him back against Seattle like the reports say and for the rest of his contract. Will that happen? Nope. That is where the problem is.

Isiah is in love with Jared and frye as starters. His dream if a nightmare right now. It can get better if these guys pick up their games but to me a puss is a puss and you are not gonna make a dude change who they are. Thing is all frye has to do is dig in and play defense and rebound and he is a keeper. Right now David lee is what frye isn't. The knicks need to trade frye and build up another position pronto!

Trade frye and craw if you must. I just need to see frye in another uniform.

You simply can ignore a dude that gets a double double every night and plays with the smarts and motor of a David lee. Behind lee the knicks still have Jared, balkman and malik. Not bad. Aside from Q the knicks have nobody that can full in and bring close to what Q has brought this year when healthy. 13/6 with 3pt range? Knicks need help at the swing man position.

I need some meletonin.
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BlueSeats
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1/5/2007  7:43 AM
Eny, I don't disagree with your assessments and motivation, I just think Frye has more to his game than we're seeing. And I say that because I believe we've already seen better from him, as witnessed by his early rookie of the year contention.

But if the objective is to get better as quickly as possible, then yeah, trading him for a solid two-way player and pure shooter would definitely help.

If only those types weren't so rare.
izybx
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1/5/2007  9:31 AM
Posted by arkrud:

Why not to have Frye to come of the bench to backup center position?
Lee will start and Frye will come when eddy is tired or get into foul trouble.
It looks logical. Frye is young player and it is OK for him to come from the bench.
I think it will be wery good for his development.
But this is in fantasy world.

In reality IT is afraid if Lee will statr consistantly and suddenly improve his offensive game (for example will add consistent jumper to his rebounding, passing, and scoring around the bascet) it will became clear who is our best player.
And it will became clear that IT is no more that lucky draft gambler and is big "0" on everything else.

Dude, do you really think the reason that Lee isnt starting is because Isiah is afraid he will play too good? Do you really think that if Lee ends up being a superstar people will say that Isiah doesnt know what hes doing by drafting him? HUH???? Are you serious bro? What kind of logic is that?

How about Lee not starting because has no jumpshot and cant keep defenses honest? Well its either that, or Isiah is jealous of Lee. Or maybe he hates white people. Or maybe he doesnt want to be known as a "lucky drafter".
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misterearl
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1/5/2007  12:33 PM
izybx - why ask why?

Isiah Thomas hates David Lee.



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martin
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1/5/2007  12:39 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

There's not a lot I say about LB that isn't a cynical or sarcastic barb toward Isiah, or the roster, but I say this in all sincerity. Frye would be much better under Brown. He WAS much better under Brown. He was simply utilized better under LB. Larry had him moving toward the basket while Isiah has him float.

I feel that same way with Crawford. Under LB he had much more direction.
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misterearl
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1/5/2007  12:48 PM
Martin - more direction under LB? thats BS and you know it.

Crawford has shown more diversity to his game recently. The more he bonds with Eddy, the more his asissts totals will continue to accelerate.

No, Crawford has not backslid this year. He's still learning.
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martin
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1/5/2007  12:50 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Martin - more direction under LB? thats BS and you know it.

Crawford has shown more diversity to his game recently. The more he bonds with Eddy, the more his asissts totals will continue to accelerate.

No, Crawford has not backslid this year. He's still learning.

backslid? come on. The dude was a chucker at the beginning of last year and rounded out to more of a midrange guy who went to the basket. Stats play that out.

Craw and Eddie have always bonded.
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misterearl
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1/5/2007  12:53 PM
and Crawford went to hole against Portland

so what's your point?

that he's worse this season?
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martin
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1/5/2007  12:56 PM
Posted by misterearl:

and Crawford went to hole against Portland

so what's your point?

that he's worse this season?

what's this, making a point 101? he went to the hole in one game and that's a sufficient argument? You and oohah must have gone to the same school of thought.

My point was and is still the same: I thought that Crawford had a better game and took direction better from a hard-core guy like LB rather than a guy like Isiah.

Didn't say he was worse this season but I think his game has regressed a little.
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oohah
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1/5/2007  1:00 PM
what's this, making a point 101? he went to the hole in one game and that's a sufficient argument? You and oohah must have gone to the same school of thought.

The school of thought that is supported by numbers and a trend that plays it self out season after season? Or the school of thought that desperately find something, anything good about LB last year so it imagines improvement for Crawford because of 4 weeks of exceptional play that he displays every season?

You keep saying Crawford was so improved last season, then prove it with numbers Martin.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
misterearl
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1/5/2007  1:06 PM
Martin - Crawford was one of the few Knicks last season who maintained a professional demeanor in interviews and attitude. You notice how carefully he recited his post game comments when he did well last season?

In my opinion, despite the chaos, especially among the veterans, Jamal stood head and shoulders over the confusion over minutes and arbitrary rotations. He took the high road.

As a result, he came across as more focused to the public. Is his productivity that much different?

Why is Larry the "hard core" guy when Isiah had the nerve to bench "the teachers pet" Marbury, something Larry never did, twice?

What about Crawford's game has regressed?

Would you consider it takes a minute for players to adjust to a new coach, a new system and new combinations?



[Edited by - misterearl on 01-05-2007 1:08 PM]
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oohah
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1/5/2007  1:08 PM 

 2000-01 CHI 61 17:11  1.8 5.0 35.2   0.7 1.9 35.0   0.4 0.6 79.4   0.2 1.3 1.5   2.3 1.4 0.7 0.2 1.1 4.6  
 2001-02 CHI 23 20:53  3.9 8.1 47.6   1.1 2.5 44.8   0.4 0.6 76.9   0.2 1.3 1.5   2.4 1.4 0.8 0.2 0.8 9.3  
 2002-03 CHI 80 24:53  4.2 10.1 41.3   1.1 3.0 35.5   1.3 1.6 80.6   0.3 2.1 2.3   4.2 1.7 1.0 0.3 1.6 10.7  
 2003-04 CHI 80 35:06  6.4 16.5 38.6   2.1 6.5 31.7   2.5 3.0 83.3   0.6 3.0 3.5   5.1 2.4 1.4 0.4 2.0 17.3  
 2004-05 NY 70 38:23  6.2 15.7 39.8   2.6 7.3 36.1   2.6 3.1 84.3   0.5 2.4 2.9   4.3 2.1 1.3 0.3 1.9 17.7  
 2005-06 NY 79 32:17  4.6 11.1 41.6   1.3 3.7 34.5   3.7 4.5 82.6   0.5 2.7 3.1   3.8 2.2 1.1 0.2 1.9 14.3  
 2006-07 NY 35 36:17  6.0 15.3 39.1   1.6 5.3 29.4   3.6 4.4 83.0   0.8 2.2 3.0   4.1 2.5 1.1 0.2 2.0 17.2


Okay Martin, go ahead and school me.

By any reasonable measure, he as good or better before last season, and this season, than the LB season. And I am sure I can pick out 4 weeks from any of the last 4 seasons, and find them to be just as good, or possibly better, than whatever arbitrary period you want to point to as last years "improvement".

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3407/career;_ylt=AlaCequjzxUpOFzilRqU1t.kvLYF

oohah

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martin
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1/5/2007  1:12 PM
Posted by oohah:
what's this, making a point 101? he went to the hole in one game and that's a sufficient argument? You and oohah must have gone to the same school of thought.

The school of thought that is supported by numbers and a trend that plays it self out season after season? Or the school of thought that desperately find something, anything good about LB last year so it imagines improvement for Crawford because of 4 weeks of exceptional play that he displays every season?

You keep saying Crawford was so improved last season, then prove it with numbers Martin.

oohah

no, the school of thought where you site a player's one game stat and think it makes an arguement. you do that often. "Hey, Frye blocked 3 shots last night! He can defend! He's a defender! Look at me now."

until last year Crawford shot more 3's than free throws. For all but 1 month last year - on a month-by-month tally - he changed that trend. For me, that shows that he was less of a chucker or that his game changed.
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oohah
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1/5/2007  1:15 PM
no, the school of thought where you site a player's one game stat and think it makes an arguement. you do that often. "Hey, Frye blocked 3 shots last night! He can defend! He's a defender! Look at me now."

That's a wonderful exaggeration. Look at the Crawford post I just made with his career numbers. is that a big enough sample for you?
until last year Crawford shot more 3's than free throws. For all but 1 month last year - on a month-by-month tally - he changed that trend. For me, that shows that he was less of a chucker or that his game changed.

Let me point to one arbitrary stat while ignoring the whole of his production! Look at me now!

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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1/5/2007  1:23 PM
Martin, he plays a few more minutes, he takes a few more shots, he scores a few more points. Crawford is the guy who is given the ball to shoot down the stretch in tough situations, game after game this year. Most of the time those are 3's Are those chucks? Has his free throw attempts gone down? No. Pretty much his entire game is commensurate with his MPG the last few years.

You want to say his shooting less threes Vs. Free throws is improvement? Fine. But you're making it out to be something dramatic which it isn't.

None of the fluctuation in his production the past few years is dramatic. He is the same player this year as he was last year as he was the year before that.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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enough! end this! do something or lose something, like your job, isiah!
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