i don't know that i can give Gasol that much credit to have netted them 3 times as many wins as they have now w/o him... Gasol's played in 8 games this season & the team has lost all but 1 of them... i don't think adding a healthy Gasol gets them 12 additional wins this season

they had a good season last year, but this season the team hasn;t gotten it done... if Fratello's lost the team, then he deserves a big chunk of the blame for their failure this season... generally speaking, a coach is always judged on how he motivates his players to give a full effort... a 6-24 record suggests otherwise... they played the Knicks tough on opening night & for the most part haven't been blown out in most of their losses according to the final scores, but those can be deceiving... i'd have to have watched every game to see how much effort the players were giving on the floor each night, so i won't make any assumptions around that based on the W-L record... but when you're the head coach of a floundering team, you have to expect to be held accountable.

what you said about the youth coming on late in the season is probably fair though.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-29-2006 12:15 PM]

Posted by TMS:

i don't know that i can give Gasol that much credit to have netted them 3 times as many wins as they have now w/o him... Gasol's played in 8 games this season & the team has lost all but 1 of them... i don't think adding a healthy Gasol gets them 12 additional wins this season

they had a good season last year, but this season the team hasn;t gotten it done... if Fratello's lost the team, then he deserves a big chunk of the blame for their failure this season... generally speaking, a coach is always judged on how he motivates his players to give a full effort... a 6-24 record suggests otherwise... they played the Knicks tough on opening night & for the most part haven't been blown out in most of their losses according to the final scores, but those can be deceiving... i'd have to have watched every game to see how much effort the players were giving on the floor each night, so i won't make any assumptions around that based on the W-L record... but when you're the head coach of a floundering team, you have to expect to be held accountable.

what you said about the youth coming on late in the season is probably fair though.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-29-2006 12:15 PM]

Except in New York....

Posted by Masterplan:

your numbers are confusing me a little... 12 wins, sure it would be x2 (or x2.5 if they manage .500), but it is also just +6. for a borderline franchise player who knows. and i thought i read that gasol was supposedly coming back slowly, not 100%, but i don't have any real idea how he's been playing.

my bad, i thought you'd said you accounted for 12-15 MORE wins if Gasol was in the rotation.

most definitely. but should he be held accountable after 30 games? 37? 41? 82? it's a judgment call.

i have no idea if fratello was treated fairly. he did well the last few seasons in a tough division and conference. this season some signs are that he's lost it (did you see the article i'm talking about?). my initial reaction was that he shouldn't have been fired after a slow start attributable to injuries. i would have thought they should make a trade or a vet signing or soemthing, but they couldn't because of ownership so they went headhunting. but if lack of motivation had a lot to do with their play that's a different story.

the part about him losing the team was the most indicting in my eyes... that's definitely a problem w/the head coach & how he's relating to his players... this isn't an indictment on his coaching ability, just that the change needed to be made, much in the same way that LB needed to go even though i still thought he was a great head coach.

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by TMS:
but when you're the head coach of a floundering team, you have to expect to be held accountable.

Except in New York....

LB was held accountable, wasn't he? Isiah's being held accountable too by the media & the fans... in fact the only coach of the past few years that i thought was NOT being held accountable was Don Chaney after he somehow managed to nab himself a contract extension even after his team's pisspoor play in the 1st half of the season... but eventually he needed to go as well.

this is NOT to say that Fratello, Chaney, Isiah, LB or any other coach is EXCLUSIVELY responsible for how their team plays... but it's always been my contention that a head coach has a big influence on the mentality of the players on his team & how they respond to challenges put before them... execution of plays is all on the players as long as the coaches are doing the job preparing them to make those plays in practice.

i'm referring to Isiah's job as a head coach... as a GM, it's a different discussion... you can argue why Jerry West still has a job in MEM too for that matter... if the owner believes in you, you still have a job, bottomline... Dolan seems to believe in Isiah to be the guy to put a winning team together... hasn't looked good so far but they're starting to play some exciting basketball this year.

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by TMS:

i'm referring to Isiah's job as a head coach... as a GM, it's a different discussion... you can argue why Jerry West still has a job in MEM too for that matter... if the owner believes in you, you still have a job, bottomline... Dolan seems to believe in Isiah to be the guy to put a winning team together... hasn't looked good so far but they're starting to play some exciting basketball this year.

If we are talking performance to performance, can you really justify that the job Isiah-as a coach- has done warrants him keeping his job and the job Fratello has done warrents him losing his?

I can't say definatively yes, and that is all I am saying. Isiah's performance has been pretty bad. Granted Fratello's has been worse-record wise-but in all honesty, on paper-who has the better team?

wait, i think u may have phrased ur answer wrong someplace, because 1st you're saying the Knicks coaches aren't held accountable, then you're saying the job Isiah's done as coach warrants him keeping his job, then you say Isiah's performance has been pretty bad... so which is it?

i think Isiah's done a good job as head coach this year considering the state it was in after last year's debacle... on paper the Knicks have the better team, i agree w/u there, but considering the how good the Grizz were last season, i think they should have a better record than what they have now even w/Gasol missing much of the season... a 1-7 record w/Gasol in the lineup doesn't strengthen the case either.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by TMS:

i'm referring to Isiah's job as a head coach... as a GM, it's a different discussion... you can argue why Jerry West still has a job in MEM too for that matter... if the owner believes in you, you still have a job, bottomline... Dolan seems to believe in Isiah to be the guy to put a winning team together... hasn't looked good so far but they're starting to play some exciting basketball this year.

If we are talking performance to performance, can you really justify that the job Isiah-as a coach- has done warrants him keeping his job and the job Fratello has done warrents him losing his?

I can't say definatively yes, and that is all I am saying. Isiah's performance has been pretty bad. Granted Fratello's has been worse-record wise-but in all honesty, on paper-who has the better team?

wait, i think u may have phrased ur answer wrong someplace, because 1st you're saying the Knicks coaches aren't held accountable, then you're saying the job Isiah's done as coach warrants him keeping his job, then you say Isiah's performance has been pretty bad... so which is it?

i think Isiah's done a good job as head coach this year considering the state it was in after last year's debacle... on paper the Knicks have the better team, i agree w/u there, but considering the how good the Grizz were last season, i think they should have a better record than what they have now even w/Gasol missing much of the season... a 1-7 record w/Gasol in the lineup doesn't strengthen the case either.

No, it's worded right. I am ask how can be justified that Isiah keep his job with what he has done as coach and how can Fratello get fired for what he has done when looking through the looking glass of job performance.

Posted by joec32033:

No, it's worded right. I am ask how can be justified that Isiah keep his job with what he has done as coach and how can Fratello get fired for what he has done when looking through the looking glass of job performance.

so you think Isiah's done a horrible job as head coach this season & deserves to be fired, while Fratello didn't deserve to be fired for his team's horrible record because he has less talent on his team, is that correct?

Posted by TMS:

Posted by joec32033:

No, it's worded right. I am ask how can be justified that Isiah keep his job with what he has done as coach and how can Fratello get fired for what he has done when looking through the looking glass of job performance.

so you think Isiah's done a horrible job as head coach this season & deserves to be fired, while Fratello didn't deserve to be fired for his team's horrible record because he has less talent on his team, is that correct?

I think Fratello accomplished more in his time there and if he was being judged on his team being 6-24 without his 3 best players (Gasol, Stoudemire, Eddie Jones) for most of the season so far. I also think Fratello established a pattern of using 10 or 11 guys. And he hasn't been able to do that at all this season.