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What do you need from your center?
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Bonn1997
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What's more important? (I wanted to reduce the options from that other poll. I'll do the same poll for PGs.)
Offense
Defense
They're equally important
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tomverve
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12/22/2006  11:32 AM
I'd say offense and defense are equally important no matter what position you're playing. Scoring a basket at one end is worth just as much to the outcome of a game as is preventing a basket from being scored on the other end. It's true that centers can uniquely dominate a game defensively, changing how the entire other team structures their offense. But the same is true on the other end-- on offense, centers can uniquely dominate a game in the post and change how the other team plays D.
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SugarRayRichardson
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12/22/2006  11:42 AM
Very good post Tom. The fact is that offense will always out shine defense. Thats the nature of the game but come playoff time when defenses stiffen you need guys that can get you hoops. The key is having guys that positively effect the team and if possible on both ends. The NBA defenses are actually kind of even in many ways. Now I know that sounds nuts but if a great team defense only lets up 90 a game and a poor defense lets up 100 a game, thats only 5 hoops spread over 4 qtrs difference. That might not even be on the defense. It could be from bad offensive execution leading to fast breaks or turnovers.
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
TMS
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12/22/2006  11:52 AM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

Very good post Tom. The fact is that offense will always out shine defense. Thats the nature of the game but come playoff time when defenses stiffen you need guys that can get you hoops. The key is having guys that positively effect the team and if possible on both ends. The NBA defenses are actually kind of even in many ways. Now I know that sounds nuts but if a great team defense only lets up 90 a game and a poor defense lets up 100 a game, thats only 5 hoops spread over 4 qtrs difference. That might not even be on the defense. It could be from bad offensive execution leading to fast breaks or turnovers.

i just pointed out the fact that history tells us that you need a C that can do both & you called me out on it citing examples like Luc Longley & an old Kareem... now you're agreeing w/that concept?
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Bippity10
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12/22/2006  11:57 AM
Depends on team make up. Some teams need a scoring center. Some need a shotblocker, some need a center to get out of the way. It's team specific and I feel these questions are far too general. All types of centers have won.
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TrueBlue
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12/22/2006  12:09 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Depends on team make up. Some teams need a scoring center. Some need a shotblocker, some need a center to get out of the way. It's team specific and I feel these questions are far too general. All types of centers have won.

That's what I brought up in the PG thread it depends on team makeup but traditionally it gets back to the inception of the created position and the primary roles.

We can sight examples all day to support how we feel personally but it proves nothing in the end. I mean look at the team Larry Brown took to the finals in the Sixers.


Eric Snow was not a scoring point gaurd but was a ball distributor who played solid defense. Dikembe Mutumbo wasn't a offensive center, nor was Matt Gieger but both played solid defense, blocked shots, and rebounded well.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 12-22-2006 11:12 AM]
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Bippity10
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12/22/2006  12:18 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by Bippity10:

Depends on team make up. Some teams need a scoring center. Some need a shotblocker, some need a center to get out of the way. It's team specific and I feel these questions are far too general. All types of centers have won.

That's what I brought up in the PG thread it depends on team makeup but traditionally it gets back to the inception of the created position and the primary roles.

We can sight examples all day to support how we feel personally but it proves nothing in the end. I mean look at the team Larry Brown took to the finals in the Sixers.


Eric Snow was not a scoring point gaurd but was a ball distributor who played solid defense. Dikembe Mutumbo wasn't a offensive center, nor was Matt Gieger but both played solid defense, blocked shots, and rebounded well.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 12-22-2006 11:12 AM]

I agree. There is a stereotype of what your center and PG and all the others should bring, but in the end it comes down to what you have on your team. Just think 20 years ago most PF's were big oafs that played D and rebounded. Now they are the best players in the league. IT all comes down to personnel.
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SugarRayRichardson
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12/22/2006  12:19 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

Very good post Tom. The fact is that offense will always out shine defense. Thats the nature of the game but come playoff time when defenses stiffen you need guys that can get you hoops. The key is having guys that positively effect the team and if possible on both ends. The NBA defenses are actually kind of even in many ways. Now I know that sounds nuts but if a great team defense only lets up 90 a game and a poor defense lets up 100 a game, thats only 5 hoops spread over 4 qtrs difference. That might not even be on the defense. It could be from bad offensive execution leading to fast breaks or turnovers.

i just pointed out the fact that history tells us that you need a C that can do both & you called me out on it citing examples like Luc Longley & an old Kareem... now you're agreeing w/that concept?


You are misunderstanding. You need a guy whose weakness is not greater than his strength. If your offense is very good you can live with servicable defense. If your defense is great you can live with servicable offense. I clearly already posted many examples of champion centers whose defense was never considered the strong part of their game.
Old Kareem
Broken footed Cartwright
Luke Longley
Moses Malone
Alvin Adams
Jack Sikma
Wes Unseld
Willis Reed
Dave Cowens
Clifford Ray (Not great on offense of defense)

All won titles (sometimes many) in the last 40 years with a better offensive game than defensive game. None were thought of as great defenders in their title years.
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
fishmike
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12/22/2006  12:26 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:
You need a guy whose weakness is not greater than his strength.
I think you just summed up the problem with our entire roster as a whole.
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wsdm
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12/22/2006  1:16 PM
I'd take a guy like Big Ben over Curry any day. Camby over Big Z too. (Big Z's not a perfect analogy because he blocks shots but the rest of his D is poor.)
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SugarRayRichardson
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12/22/2006  1:22 PM
And yet Big Z and Curry both out played Ben Wallace head to head this year.
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
fishmike
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12/22/2006  1:26 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

And yet Big Z and Curry both out played Ben Wallace head to head this year.
over 82 games who has a bigger impact on the game everynight? Curry, Z or Big Ben? Is it even debatable?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
SugarRayRichardson
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12/22/2006  1:32 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

And yet Big Z and Curry both out played Ben Wallace head to head this year.
over 82 games who has a bigger impact on the game everynight? Curry, Z or Big Ben? Is it even debatable?


Its very debatable this year. Many Bulls fans have wanted Wallace traded all year. They dont like playing offense 4 against 5 and having no post game. Bens production has been dropping for years and at 16 mill he is paid about twice as much as he is worth. As Ben keeps getting older his production will continue to drop and at 15-16 mill a year I would not wnat him.
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
SugarRayRichardson
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12/22/2006  1:37 PM
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I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
Bonn1997
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12/22/2006  2:00 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

And yet Big Z and Curry both out played Ben Wallace head to head this year.

I'd disagree with that but Wallace is past his prime; so what's your point? Those two couldn't hold Ben's jockstrap when he was in his prime.
Bonn1997
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12/22/2006  2:01 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

And yet Big Z and Curry both out played Ben Wallace head to head this year.
over 82 games who has a bigger impact on the game everynight? Curry, Z or Big Ben? Is it even debatable?
Ben by a mile. Chicago is built intelligently. They know 2s and 3s who can score are easy to get. So, they're willing to sacrifice scoring from their C in order to get outstanding defense.

fishmike
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12/22/2006  4:05 PM
unreal... its not even close. Also Ben gets so many tips on offensive rebounds that go out to guards that dont show in the box score. He's great at setting picks as well.

As bad as you think Ben is on offense Curry is twice as bad on defense.

stats are overrated when your talking about a guy who only scores.

Ben also had a very slow start and is getting closer to the kind of player he was the few years Det. 12 games in Dec he's averaging 8/12 and 2.6 blocks and 3.3 assists. Eddy's had 3 assists also (in his last 7 games).

Eddy scores, and he scores well. He doesnt block shots, play any defense or have any defensive presence. He's a below average rebounder, he doesnt pass, he turns the ball over, is good for 4 fouls a game an shoots a low FT%

But he's our guy
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Allanfan20
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12/22/2006  4:16 PM
I'd still trade Curry, even if he scored 30 points for 20 games in a row.
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SugarRayRichardson
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12/22/2006  6:22 PM
Posted by fishmike:

unreal... its not even close. Also Ben gets so many tips on offensive rebounds that go out to guards that dont show in the box score. He's great at setting picks as well.

As bad as you think Ben is on offense Curry is twice as bad on defense.

stats are overrated when your talking about a guy who only scores.

Ben also had a very slow start and is getting closer to the kind of player he was the few years Det. 12 games in Dec he's averaging 8/12 and 2.6 blocks and 3.3 assists. Eddy's had 3 assists also (in his last 7 games).

Eddy scores, and he scores well. He doesnt block shots, play any defense or have any defensive presence. He's a below average rebounder, he doesnt pass, he turns the ball over, is good for 4 fouls a game an shoots a low FT%

But he's our guy


Lets talk about this without the bias for a second.

You say Ben gets many tips that dont show up in stats. Actually they usually do because more often than not he often how he pushs his rebound numbers up 2-3 in 1 position by repeatedly tapping the ball.

Does he get assists? Yes when all he does is pass the ball to a bunch of good jump shooters he will pick up assists. It doesnt help when the other team barely even guards the guy making a 4-5 situation often.

If I said the Bulls will never be a contender without a post scorer would you bash me? Well not only do I say it but their own GM said it 3 weeks ago on Mike and Mike in the morning.

You bash Currys ft shooting? Why not Wallaces FT shooting? Curry is 10% higher than Wallace in FT shooting.

You say we should forget Bens slow start and judge Ben by a recent 11 game period where he averaged 8-12? What about Currys 11 game period when he average 26-9? Is that not comparable?

Would it shock you to know many Bulls fans that watch both teams agree Curry has out played Wallace this year?

Also if Wallace is such a great post defender why did Curry ring him up both times they played this year (20 and 24) and twice last year as well? Where was Wallaces great defense then? If Curry is such a bad defender why doesnt the great Ben Wallace exploit that and ring up a 20 point night? How come head to head Wallace looks like the shrinking man?

I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
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