Posted by oohah:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by oohah:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Well if a one year ultimatum to improve can ever be considered a good deal, one that followed such a season as last year has to be considered as good of one as possible.

This is what is known as a very low set bar.

As important as the wins is the building of cohesion. The Knicks are showing much more of that don't you think?

This is what is known as a very low set bar.

Low bar and all, is it progress?

oohah

better eval, at all star- break

Posted by martin:

Posted by oohah:

I think the Knicks have made evident progress.

Last year at the 28 game mark the Knicks were 7-21. This year they are 11-17. The Knicks have won over 50% more games over the same period of time.

Is it good? No.

But are we inching toward respectability? I think so.

Isiah has had to deal with all of the same issues LB did, some worse. Injuries, attitudes, slumps. We also played our toughest month at the start of the season.. The team has looked awful at times. But somehow they have won 4 more games to the same point.

The reason I pick the 28 game mark is because that is when the "Streak" began last year and was supposed to mark the beginning of the "LB effect" of improvement after being awful. That was when the "Great LB Debate" blew wide open.

I think they probably won't have a 6 game winning streak this season, but they might. I am more confident they won't have any 13 game losing streaks or any other double-digit losing streaks either.

I'm not too excited, but I can see something happening. Baby Steps.

oohah

could be just a hot streak: we must wait until the end of the season to determine progress. Why start a thread like this anyway?

Posted by oohah:

what constitutes a hot period? 1 month? 2? 3? 6?

A better way for me to answer is to define progress. To me progress has be sustained for more than a season and it cannot be proclaimed after a few good weeks. You really have to become a better player and stay a better player, not just do it for a few weeks. Just take a look at JC's 2005-2006 game log. Or any of the years before that. He has 3-5 pretty strong weeks in a row every year. Players get hot!

oohah

Way to turn them tables Martin!

You're right, it cuold just be a hot streak...except I have not observed a hot streak yet. Have you? What I have observed is slow but steady improvement, player by player, game by game.

However you are correct, before we can say definitely there was progress we have to wait until the end of the year, Like Mr. Dolan said. But it looks like progress to me, that's all I am saying. We can analyze the reports in May before we publish the results.

Now if this team was like Jamal crawford....then we could show data from past seasons and show that they are merely continuing a pattern, or a trend if you will.

***

What may really be the difference is whether Isiah finds something that works and sticks with it, or if he pulls an LB and decides to go away from what works.

Lemme Drop an Ooh-Bomb on you. One of the main reasons this team is 4 games better? Not starting/playing AD and Rose big minutes!

oohah

Posted by oohah:

Hard to say. If you're asking me if we played better these last two games than our lowest point of last year I'd have to answer "yes"

If you ask me if we've yet played as well this year as we did during our 6 game win streak last year I'd have to answer "no"

Do I think we'll end up better than 23 wins this year? Yes.

Is that alone satisfactory? Depends who you ask.

If we show a 50% win total improvement (36 games) I will say that is satisfactory progress. We go over that and I will be almost happy...for this season...something to build on.

oohah

Not to put words in your mouth but something tells me if we show 35, 34, 33, 32, even 31 wins you'll still consider it satisfactory progress.

You almost seem committed to us making progress, so I'm sure you'll find it.


But last year was universally understood to be an abomination. It's almost unthinkable we wouldn't show "progress," so what does it really prove?

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by oohah:

Hard to say. If you're asking me if we played better these last two games than our lowest point of last year I'd have to answer "yes"

If you ask me if we've yet played as well this year as we did during our 6 game win streak last year I'd have to answer "no"

Do I think we'll end up better than 23 wins this year? Yes.

Is that alone satisfactory? Depends who you ask.

If we show a 50% win total improvement (36 games) I will say that is satisfactory progress. We go over that and I will be almost happy...for this season...something to build on.

oohah

Not to put words in your mouth but something tells me if we show 35, 34, 33, 32, even 31 wins you'll still consider it satisfactory progress.

You almost seem committed to us making progress, so I'm sure you'll find it.


But last year was universally understood to be an abomination. It's almost unthinkable we wouldn't show "progress," so what does it really prove?

You're definitely putting words in my mouth. This is not like the LB is making progress argumernts of last year. I like to see the win total up, but I can show you concrete evidence that is outside of W' and L's:

Lee and Curry are emerging nicely. Frye has been coming around. Q had a stretch of the best ball of his career.

There are some downs too, but overall the team is more competitive, wuoldn't you agree? Coupled with the youth looking good and getting the time to show it has been reflected in a modestly better win total.

Or is all the stuff I just pointed out a figment of my imagination?

oohah

Posted by daddynel:

Posted by islesfan:

2 other reasons why they're 4 games better than last season:

1) The players haven't quit on the coach yet.

2) The GM isn't sabotaging the coach by doing nothing when the players fought with and quit on the coach.

at this point in the season last year i don't think they had quit on there coach yet. that happened way after the win streak.

Posted by oohah:

I'm not sure what you are looking for in an answer that you haven't already gotten.

I'd like to know:

Is the team building cohesion over the beginning of this season? Are they making progress in that way?

Are the young individual players on whom we are to build for the future making progress?

Is the team showing more heart and resiliency as the season passes?

I think the answers to those questions are yes.

I don't think you have answered that for me, not that you have to, but I would like to know your opinion.

oohah

I'm pretty beat, maybe I'll pick this up in more detail tomorrow.

In brief I see improvement in some measures, but nothing that exceeds my expectations, and nothing that allays my larger fears for our future.

My problem with the issue is it's all in comparison to last year, which is a hideous baseline to begin with. I understand it is a context given by Dolan, but it makes things that are still bad seem better. It's like a doctor telling me the good news is I no longer have cancer, but now I have polio.

Posted by Michael6835:

Posted by nyk4ever:

Ugh. I don't want to be the guy that rains on the parade but I also don't want to be labeled as someone that doesn't post after victories because tonights game was awesome and I want this team to win every game!

I honestly just don't see the "evident progress" though. The Bobcats are a bad team who were missing 2 of their better players in Brevin Knight and Sean May, so us using the excuse that we were without some players doesn't cut it for me. Sure the team has more wins this year compared to last year but comparing anything to last year is trivial because we all know it was 100X worse then it could have been. I still think its horrible that we were down 19 at one point tonight AGAIN and to a bad team at HOME. That is not a good sign and while we did win the game, we also benefited from the Bobcats array of poor play, including plays drawn up for Matt Carrol, which is baffling.

There were some positives like Frye having a great shooting game, Lee's outstanding play, as well as Curry's but I feel this is a team that should feast on the Bobcats big men (sans Okafor) We got the usual Crawford good game every 5-7 games. Marbury was pretty good, kind of a non factor. I don't know, I just don't see the "evident" progress that Oohah sees. If this team had a legit PG and SG, I might be singing a different tune.

Again, I don't want to throw cold water on all of this and ruin everyones fun, I'm just responding to the topic how I feel but if I don't respond, I risk being labeled as someone who doesn't show up after wins and thats not how I want it to be! Anytime the Knicks win it's a great feeling but to me, I gotta put this win in perspective.

Just my 2cents. Flame away on me.

ok here is my flame,
Why do you make an excuse for opponents, we won the game that should be the bottom line. We could have lost, but we grinded it out and somehow found a way to win. Good teams find a way to win, I am not saying we are a good team yet, I am just pointing out that point. Also we were missing half of our squad, and if you want to compare victories, the game against the jazz we beat at home at the buzzer; they had the 2nd best record in the league. A win is a win, in the end its like fish mike always says, its about ws and ls. Tonight we got another W, thats all that matters to me.

If we were as good as the spurs or the suns and barely beat the bobcats, then your point would make sense. They are great teams and barely winning against bad teams would be a red flag. But we are not the spurs or the suns, we are the knicks and we are a bad team playing another bad team. The only difference is we are starting to move in the right direction. I'm rambling but u get the point.