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Masterplan
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12/20/2006  11:04 AM
Posted by misterearl:

MasterPlan - you have no sense of context. None

Avoid what Layden left behind and the cap situation entirely.

heat- back to back number one lottery picks

grizzlies - get real, expansion team

bulls - took seven years to make the playoffs, 7

sheesh

dude i answered your question. yes the knicks are a unique mess. more so than these other teams? who's to say?

here's a question for you. what team has had a similar situation to the mess layden left, and NOT succeeded in turning it around?

you're setting up a straw man, dude. whatever examples i or anyone else uses, you can find a few ticky tack details like the above to refute. so until you answer my question we are at an impasse.

i think my answers are the closest you'll get to a similar situation. find a better one and i'll take you seriously.
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anrst
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12/20/2006  11:04 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Here We Go

Islesfan - read again. It isn't about Isiah Thomas dude.

>>but what team that was so thoroughly moribund as the Knicks in 2003 has become an elite squad within three seasons?

It's not about Isiah, it's about the media. If only they would write that we were good, we would be good. How could it be about Isiah, he's only the president, GM and coach
Masterplan
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12/20/2006  11:06 AM
Posted by Michael6835:
Posted by misterearl:

MasterPlan - you have no sense of context. None

Avoid what Layden left behind and the cap situation entirely.

heat- back to back number one lottery picks

grizzlies - get real, expansion team

bulls - took seven years to make the playoffs, 7

sheesh

nyk4ever - it's about the fans who parrot the press.

yeah i didnt get his examples either.

heat - in addition to what you added. They got Shaq which was the deal of a life time. Everyone was going after him, IT included, he just had nothing to offer
grizzlies - indeed they are expansion team, but now where are they... trade talks for gasol means that they need to retool. they need to be in the east with that team.
bulls- took 7 years and they are still mediocre.
nets- you forget the years the nets sucked, they were bound to get some good draft picks. then they werre able to get kidd and steal carter. But what does that mean ? They have the same record as us.

you can retool in 3yrs, you cant blow it up get rid of everyone and bring in new people and expect a finished product in 3yrs. If you do, then that is the problem, your expectations are too high.

same question for you then. find a suitable example of a laydenesque salary cap mess we can discuss. otherwise the straw man thing goes for you too.

bottom line, in the real world there are no perfect examples. did my best. can you do better?
Masterplan
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12/20/2006  11:13 AM
earl, michael, we're in uncharted waters. IT took us deeper into the mess when other teams turned it around by definitely more typical strategies of cap management and keeping draft picks.

other teams have gotten out from under salary cap messes of lesser dimensions. the current salaries were all brought in by IT though so blaming layden is a bit tenuous.

actually, that makes me think. dallas and denver rebuilds... coming when i get a chance. unless you want to take it first.
TheGame
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12/20/2006  11:17 AM
Now that the fight thing has blown over somewhat (the Utah win and A.I. trade are going a long way toward getting peoples' minds off the fight), I think IT needs to be given the rest of the year to develop this team. It should be abundantly clear by the end of the season whether this team has significantly improved or not. IT has not done a great job, but Earl is right, 3 years is not that long of a time to turn a team with aged players into a contending team. The question I have is whether this team can work and grow throughout this season. What is the point of firing IT now? No one is going to come in and save the season. If the KNicks are going to have a good year, IT is the one that is most likely to get them to do it.
Trust the Process
Michael6835
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12/20/2006  11:18 AM
Posted by Masterplan:
Posted by Michael6835:
Posted by misterearl:

MasterPlan - you have no sense of context. None

Avoid what Layden left behind and the cap situation entirely.

heat- back to back number one lottery picks

grizzlies - get real, expansion team

bulls - took seven years to make the playoffs, 7

sheesh

nyk4ever - it's about the fans who parrot the press.

yeah i didnt get his examples either.

heat - in addition to what you added. They got Shaq which was the deal of a life time. Everyone was going after him, IT included, he just had nothing to offer
grizzlies - indeed they are expansion team, but now where are they... trade talks for gasol means that they need to retool. they need to be in the east with that team.
bulls- took 7 years and they are still mediocre.
nets- you forget the years the nets sucked, they were bound to get some good draft picks. then they werre able to get kidd and steal carter. But what does that mean ? They have the same record as us.

you can retool in 3yrs, you cant blow it up get rid of everyone and bring in new people and expect a finished product in 3yrs. If you do, then that is the problem, your expectations are too high.

same question for you then. find a suitable example of a laydenesque salary cap mess we can discuss. otherwise the straw man thing goes for you too.

bottom line, in the real world there are no perfect examples. did my best. can you do better?

i dont fully understand what your asking me ?

You cited different examples, but no one in the league has had to rebuild with the mess that layden left us in with salary cap hell, etc. Also in this NY Market.
Chicago is prime example, they did through the draft, and it took them forever to get to the point where they are at now.
Lakers had shaq and traded for kobe before he was kobe, now shaq is gone, they still have kobe and now they can retool.
Boston - they have been rebuilding since forever, they dont have salary cap hell like we have.

Isaih has made mistakes, but it looks like this season him and dolan have figured it out. They drafted well, picked up jared, and kato and didnt want ai. You have to give this team time, it will work out, there are 1 or 2 players that need to be moved. All they need is time.
M
Masterplan
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12/20/2006  11:19 AM
i actually agree that IT should finish out the year. i've had it with him, but he does deserve the chance as promised to prove me and other detractors wrong. we won't accomplish anything the second half of a post-IT season that wouldn't tap my patience after these last few seasons anyway.
Bippity10
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12/20/2006  11:21 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Bippity - would you consider that "fixing our own issues" includes the persistent negative press mob that follows the Knicks in New York?

Never content to work from a framework of due diligence, reserach or original perspective...

...but more occupied with creating the most sensational headlines?

How silly is that?

No I don't think it does. I think the media has been the same for years. It's always going to be this way. This is why as an owner and GM you have to understand NY and target players and coach's that are mentally tough enough to handle the media and not allow it to become a distraction. We can't change the media but we can adjust the way we respond to it. Biotching is not the way to go. That just ads more fuel to the fire. The more you and I complain about it, the more they know you are reading, the more tabloid they become. We are feeding them without even realizing it.
I just hope that people will like me
Masterplan
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12/20/2006  11:23 AM
Michael,

i am saying misterearl's question is bull****. he asks for an examle of a team that has rebuilt a laydenesque mess in 3 years, knowing full well there is no even close comparison. at least, not one i can think of, so i asked if there is one i'm missing.

if you guys can't come up with better examples than the ones i gave, you'll just have to deal with what i said like it or not.
BasketballJones
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12/20/2006  11:23 AM
Agree about the press. They are a nuisance and should be made to shut up.

Perhaps MSG security people should be placed outside of the offices of all the major New York papers, magazines and TV stations, and armed with billy clubs, handcuffs, and pistols. They can decree that all articles about the Knicks shall henceforth be only positive.

They should be empowered to arrest, detain, and torture any uncooperative reporter attempting to attend Knicks games or publish negative articles about the Knicks.

No negative talk, and no contradicting the MSG line!


[Edited by - basketballjones on 12-20-2006 11:24]
https:// It's not so hard.
BlueSeats
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12/20/2006  11:26 AM
Last I looked, by winning percentage, we were the 4th worst team in the league.

What's not to like?

And I didn't read many articles on the fight, so their may have been a lot of excess spewed that I don't know about, but can we please not compare sending in the last guy on our bench for a "hit" with a minute to go in a blowout to one of the games 50 greatest owning the paint across his career?

Mardy Collins is no Dave Cowens -however british both their names may be - and this is no championship Celtics team.
Michael6835
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12/20/2006  11:31 AM
Posted by Masterplan:

earl, michael, we're in uncharted waters. IT took us deeper into the mess when other teams turned it around by definitely more typical strategies of cap management and keeping draft picks.

other teams have gotten out from under salary cap messes of lesser dimensions. the current salaries were all brought in by IT though so blaming layden is a bit tenuous.

actually, that makes me think. dallas and denver rebuilds... coming when i get a chance. unless you want to take it first.

The only moves i hold against IT, are jerome james and steve francis and mo taylor and i guess vin baker. (but we made the playoffs and he looked like he might do something) I didnt understand those moves, everything else I could see other people doing. He traded for Curry and didnt protect the picks, that was a bit much. But every GM said Curry was a far better than a prosepect out of college (except dwight howard)

Dallas, Denver were both teams that were garbage for a long time before they became relevant again.

If the team finishes the season strong and makes the playoff, would you want to keep IT or still get rid of him...

I would keep him, if we make the playoffs or make a strong push for it.
M
Michael6835
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12/20/2006  11:37 AM
truth is the league overall is so bad with the exception of a few teams.

There is a difference of about 4 to 5 games that separates us from the middle of the pack.
M
BlueSeats
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12/20/2006  11:38 AM
Posted by Michael6835:

truth is the league overall is so bad with the exception of a few teams.

There is a difference of about 4 to 5 games that separates us from the middle of the pack.


But is it good that we are worse than a bad middle pack?
fishmike
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12/20/2006  11:39 AM
Posted by misterearl:

MasterPlan - you have no sense of context. None

Avoid what Layden left behind and the cap situation entirely.

heat- back to back number one lottery picks

grizzlies - get real, expansion team

bulls - took seven years to make the playoffs, 7

sheesh

nyk4ever - it's about the fans who parrot the press.
actually the context is great. What did Thorn have? He traded Marbury for Kidd and drafted RJ and Collins with mid first rounders.

The Suns traded Marbury and Penny for cap space, drafted Amare and signed Nash

The Bulls sent their garbage to us and used that flexibility to their advantages.

Had Isiah just stayed away from adding bad veteran contracts and stuck with the one thing he does well, which is draft we would be looking at a team full of the guys we all like (Frye, Balkman, Lee, Nate, Jackie Butler, etc) and $20+mm in cap space this offseason.

Instead we have Francis and Marbury dominating the ball, the backcourt and the salary cap for 2 more years after this. Instead we have Jerome James for 5 years, Crawford for 6. Instead we are all hoping this is the year that Eddy gets in shape and doesnt mail it in.

Has it occured to anyone the reason the 2nd unit guys like Balkman, Lee, Frye (when he's at center for Eddy), Nate play so well is because these mostly late first rounders are simply better ball players than the expensive max jerks Isiah traded for?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
holfresh
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12/20/2006  11:44 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by misterearl:

MasterPlan - you have no sense of context. None

Avoid what Layden left behind and the cap situation entirely.

heat- back to back number one lottery picks

grizzlies - get real, expansion team

bulls - took seven years to make the playoffs, 7

sheesh

nyk4ever - it's about the fans who parrot the press.
actually the context is great. What did Thorn have? He traded Marbury for Kidd and drafted RJ and Collins with mid first rounders.

The Suns traded Marbury and Penny for cap space, drafted Amare and signed Nash

The Bulls sent their garbage to us and used that flexibility to their advantages.

Had Isiah just stayed away from adding bad veteran contracts and stuck with the one thing he does well, which is draft we would be looking at a team full of the guys we all like (Frye, Balkman, Lee, Nate, Jackie Butler, etc) and $20+mm in cap space this offseason.

Instead we have Francis and Marbury dominating the ball, the backcourt and the salary cap for 2 more years after this. Instead we have Jerome James for 5 years, Crawford for 6. Instead we are all hoping this is the year that Eddy gets in shape and doesnt mail it in.

Has it occured to anyone the reason the 2nd unit guys like Balkman, Lee, Frye (when he's at center for Eddy), Nate play so well is because these mostly late first rounders are simply better ball players than the expensive max jerks Isiah traded for?

This has come up before, Does it ever matter that Dolan owns the team and he has his mandates...Do you really think Isiah and Isiah only had the call on whether or not to rebuild?
fishmike
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12/20/2006  11:53 AM
same question for you then. find a suitable example of a laydenesque salary cap mess we can discuss. otherwise the straw man thing goes for you too.

bottom line, in the real world there are no perfect examples. did my best. can you do better?
The 2000 Nuggets were built around 3 players signed to large contracts. McDyess, Van Exel and Lafrentz. Also on that team were Voshon Lenard and Ken Willis.

3 years later that team is Carmello, Miller, Nene, Camby, Rodney White, Elson, Chris Anderson, Skita

Kiki didnt take any super long 5-6 year deals. He dumped Raef and Van Ex for Juwan Howard's monster deal and rather than trade that he let it come off the books. He didnt even draft great, rather OK, but he invested in getting extra picks. Nene's been a wash, Skita a bust and Melo a star. Mostly he got rid of an old core, bit the bullet for 2-3 years, drafted, avoided bad contracts regardless of need (Jerome James) and that team is pretty damn good.

A LOT of people around here were resigned and OK to let the Shandon/Houston/Spoon/Eisley disaster just come off the books. Isiah had a good record for drafting. Use the MSG vault to buy some addition late first rounders. The kind of trades teams makes EVERY YEAR and grab potential late gems like Lee or Ryan Gomes or Milsap who I also like...

Insteads its been 3 years and our cap situtation is WORSE than Layden's and while everyone swears the players are better strangely 5 coaches into it the record is NOT.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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12/20/2006  12:04 PM
holfresh, was Dolan's mandate to make bad trades and bad signings? Did Dolan say to sign Jerome James, Vin Baker and give up unprotected first rounders for Eddy Curry? Did Dolan tell him to trade for Mo Taylor and Jalen Rose then waive them? We could go on all day, no matter what the mandate was Isiah has executed all 9 of his plans in the last 3 years very poorly.

The worst part is Isiah and co had a built in excuse to suck for 2-3 years while they tried to amass draftpicks and good young talent. After that time they would have a bunch of homegrown guys and $25mm in cap space. Instead we have .350 ball, our 5th coach and are the joke of pro sports. Sugar coat it any way you want. Wins and losses dont lie
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Michael6835
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12/20/2006  12:08 PM
Posted by fishmike:
same question for you then. find a suitable example of a laydenesque salary cap mess we can discuss. otherwise the straw man thing goes for you too.

bottom line, in the real world there are no perfect examples. did my best. can you do better?
The 2000 Nuggets were built around 3 players signed to large contracts. McDyess, Van Exel and Lafrentz. Also on that team were Voshon Lenard and Ken Willis.

3 years later that team is Carmello, Miller, Nene, Camby, Rodney White, Elson, Chris Anderson, Skita

Kiki didnt take any super long 5-6 year deals. He dumped Raef and Van Ex for Juwan Howard's monster deal and rather than trade that he let it come off the books. He didnt even draft great, rather OK, but he invested in getting extra picks. Nene's been a wash, Skita a bust and Melo a star. Mostly he got rid of an old core, bit the bullet for 2-3 years, drafted, avoided bad contracts regardless of need (Jerome James) and that team is pretty damn good.

A LOT of people around here were resigned and OK to let the Shandon/Houston/Spoon/Eisley disaster just come off the books. Isiah had a good record for drafting. Use the MSG vault to buy some addition late first rounders. The kind of trades teams makes EVERY YEAR and grab potential late gems like Lee or Ryan Gomes or Milsap who I also like...

Insteads its been 3 years and our cap situtation is WORSE than Layden's and while everyone swears the players are better strangely 5 coaches into it the record is NOT.

Nuggets, had the number 3 pick (luck of a lottery) and benefited from a botched draft by the pistons. They drafted Darko, instead of Melo, (luck). However, your points are correct, in that example the nuggets did it in 3yrs. But how many years did they suck before they were able to get lucky and get melo at 3 ? That is what everyone is ignoring. Last time I remember denver being relevant or good Mutombo had just beat seattle. Am i wrong ?
Name another example, I bet that team sucked like hell for awhile before they got a strong core. Oh yeah, none of them operate in the NY market.
M
Bippity10
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12/20/2006  12:22 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:

Agree about the press. They are a nuisance and should be made to shut up.

Perhaps MSG security people should be placed outside of the offices of all the major New York papers, magazines and TV stations, and armed with billy clubs, handcuffs, and pistols. They can decree that all articles about the Knicks shall henceforth be only positive.

They should be empowered to arrest, detain, and torture any uncooperative reporter attempting to attend Knicks games or publish negative articles about the Knicks.

No negative talk, and no contradicting the MSG line!


[Edited by - basketballjones on 12-20-2006 11:24]

I hate you man.

I always read your shiot, get all fired up to respond. I type a 45 minute long post and then look up to see who I'm responding to and have to delete my post. Enough with the sarcasm, it gets me every time
I just hope that people will like me
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