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Mardy: I'd goon him again.
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TMS
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12/20/2006  2:16 PM
to be honest, i really didn't notice Mardy pushing, dragging or pulling JR to the ground... he came down hard on top of JR's shoulders & then his arms immediately went up again... momentum took care of the rest... i don't think he was in any danger of being injured there unless he happened to land on his wrist awkardly or something of that nature... i mean when you break down any play, there's always a risk of being injured, whether it's being poked in the eye, hit in the head, landing on someone's foot, etc... the question in my mind is was there any INTENT by Mardy to injure JR Smith, & from what i saw i don't think there was any at all... that to me, means it was a clean foul... if he had for example let JR go up in the air first & then undercut him or swiped at his head while he was in the air causing JR's body to come crashing to the floor on his head or neck, then sure, i would call that a dirty foul, & i wouldn't excuse him for that at all... i guess we just have different interpretations on the meaning of what's clean & what isn't.
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Bippity10
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12/20/2006  2:26 PM
I can't argue this anymore. In my mind it was a dirty play. I don't care if you tap, or push or undercut or grab or whatever word you want to use, it was dirty. If you want to go for the block, attempt to make a basketball play and blast someone as they go to the basket, that is part of basketball. It's a basketball play. But grabbing someone intentionally around the shoulders as they plant for a layup(whether you release or not) is not a basketball play.

That's how knees and ankles get hurt. If it's not a basketball play it doesn't belong in basketball. That's just my point of view I guess. My basketball career success came to a halt when a guy pushed me from behind as I planted for a layup. Innocent but blasted my ankle in 1000 pieces. The guy still apologizes to me to this day because he knew it wasn't a basketball play. It was just his frustration for a teammate getting beat again.

Again, bball isn't for sissy's. Guys get hurt. Guys foul hard. But do it making a basketball play. To me it's that simple. I know most of the guys on this site play, and I know there is not one guy on this site that would not turn on someone that fouled them from behind on a breakaway. Noone.
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TMS
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12/20/2006  2:34 PM
If you want to go for the block, attempt to make a basketball play and blast someone as they go to the basket, that is part of basketball.

so it would've been a clean foul had Mardy let JR go up for the layup & instead swiped at his arms while crashing into him & both of them go crashing to the floor? i'm not trying to aggravate you Bip... just trying to see where you're coming from on this... what happened to you really sucks & i can't speak to what you or that other guy must have been feeling over it cuz i've never had to experience an injury like that (knock on wood)... i'm pretty sure my feelings would be different on this if i had, so i can understand where you're coming from on that standpoint.
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Bippity10
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12/20/2006  2:40 PM
If Mardy goes for the block and hammers him in the process, yes that's fair game. That's a hard foul and part of basketball. What he did was not.

I guess we could try this experiment. Next time you are at the gym and some guy is lighting your team up, commit a hard foul in the process of making a bball play. Maybe come across his arms hard as you try to make a steal. Or follow through on the body as you go for a block. 90% of your opponents will not react to this. They will get up, you guys will slap hands and the game will carry on. Some of the more emotional players may talk trash to you but few will fight. And if they do you will have 9 other guys on your side.

Now after you try that. The next time someone has a breakaway try bringing them down from behind. Let us all know what the reaction is to it from everyone.

It's an unwritten rule in basketball that you just don't do. And if you do, expect a reaction. Which is what happened. Again, neither should be condemned for this. Mardy was frustrated and JR reacted just like anyone else did. But my problem was Nate getting up in JR's face like JR did somehting wrong, when it was all mardy.
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TMS
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12/20/2006  3:03 PM
like i said, i had no problem w/JR's reaction, so don't misunderstand me on this... i woulda been pissed that i got knocked to the ground too... but i saw the fight as being caused by Nate getting involved & pushing JR, not by Mardy's foul... you could see the look on JR's face like "WTF you doin?!" when Nate rushed in & pushed him... before that i don't think JR Smith had any intention of fighting Mardy, they were just going chest to chest cuz of the tensions of the moment & how hard he went to the floor... the Nuggets were obviously running up the score & the Knicks were obviously frustrated at being embarassed on their home floor by a team who's coach has a widely known dislike for their own coach... JR had slammed down a reverse dunk on them earlier in the game & there was plenty of talking going on just before the foul occurred that built up even more tensions over Melo & Camby being on the floor... emotions were obviously overflowing on both sides at that point, which is understandable, but i don't fault Mardy's foul for causing the brawl... it was all because Nate & JR felt like they had to act like tough guys on live television & in front of their teammates, fans (in Nate's case) & their family & friends (in JR's case - he's from Jersey & i'm sure he had a fair contingent of his boys at the game watching)
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Allanfan20
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12/20/2006  3:06 PM
I don't care HOW the foul was made, JR Smith was in danger of getting hurt, simply because he was grabbed around the shoulders and neck and then ended up on the ground. I don't care if it was soft or hard, he could have gotton hurt from a play that didn't need to happen. Like Bip said, a foul should come from trying to make a play. This isn't Ultimate Fighting. It's basketball. There's no place for stupidity and what Collins did was stupid. He might as well tried punching Smith while he was going up. Same thing.

TMS, if you were free to go for a layup and then Bip grabbed both of your shoulders or your neck and brought you to the floor hard, are you telling me you wouldn't AT LEAST get in Bips face? I'm honestly surprised JR didn't do anything more cause most people aren't Jerome Williams.

Here's a better example. What do you think Rasheed Wallace or Ben Wallace would have done if Collins did that to them? Collins is LUCKY!

I don't hate Collins for this. He just has A LOT to learn.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
daddynel
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12/20/2006  3:07 PM
was it a hard foul? yes. would it have gotten an ejection? yes. nothing else would've happened had nate not pumped his fists and acted like a highschool freshman trying to fit in. one of the anouncers (can't remember who) even said as it was happening "collins will probably be ejected".
TMS
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12/20/2006  3:12 PM
TMS, if you were free to go for a layup and then Bip grabbed both of your shoulders or your neck and brought you to the floor hard, are you telling me you wouldn't AT LEAST get in Bips face?

did you even bother to read my last 2 replies to Bip? i already said twice that i woulda done exactly the same thing JR Smith did & got back up into Mardy's face... i don't fault him for that... i do fault him for rushing at Nate & throwing cheap shot punches in on him while Nate was pulled off him tho (& i'm NOT excusing Nate either here btw, hope that's clear enough too)
He might as well tried punching Smith while he was going up. Same thing.

please, that's not even close.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-20-2006 3:14 PM]
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Bippity10
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12/20/2006  4:08 PM
TMS: I agree with everything you said. We are on the same page. I guess the only thing I disagree with you on is that I think what Collins did was DIRTY. Not taint your career dirty. Not dirty enough that we should still be talking about it. But in my view it was dirty. I'm with Allanfan on this one. There is no place for a hard foul that is not committed while making a basketball play. No excuse.

But on everything else I agree. I think Nate escalated the whole thing and deserved what he got. And I think Carmelo is an idiot for what he did.
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Bippity10
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12/20/2006  4:11 PM
by the way, yesterday my 2 year old was walking towards our cat. He had his hands up and he was growling and obviously trying to scare the little thing. He tortures that damn cat. I had seen enough. So I ran over, knocked my son down and ran and hid in the closet. My wife came in angry wondering what I had done to our son. I said "don't worry baby I was just pulling a Carmelo". She wasn't happy. She didn't understand the whole protect a teammate thing me and the cat got going on.
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TMS
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12/20/2006  4:26 PM
lol... don't worry, i'm sure the Cat will have your back the next time your son gets up into your face Bip.
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Rich
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12/20/2006  4:59 PM
I thought it was comical that Greg Anthony knocked the foul. When he was playing, he cheap shotted Jordan in worse ways.
MS
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12/20/2006  5:48 PM
not tech on jordan for the ball throw at anthony, putting his finger in starks face, and taunting players on the floor after a made basket, nba is a disgrace with the way they call things
NYKBocker
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12/21/2006  9:12 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by babyKnicks:

he did not drag him to the ground. He fouled him hard. and let up right away.

Let's try not to be too careless with the adjectives.

Okay, who friggin cares. Fouled him hard from behind, dragged him down from behind. It doesn't matter. It was a dangerous play. If you play ball and that's ever been done to you, you know you would not accept it. You only accept it because Mardy is a Knick.

I would actually accept it if it was done to me, but the person giving the foul better be able to receive one and accept it.

[Edited by - NYKBocker on 12-21-2006 09:13 AM]
Bippity10
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12/21/2006  11:13 AM
Posted by NYKBocker:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by babyKnicks:

he did not drag him to the ground. He fouled him hard. and let up right away.

Let's try not to be too careless with the adjectives.

Liar
Okay, who friggin cares. Fouled him hard from behind, dragged him down from behind. It doesn't matter. It was a dangerous play. If you play ball and that's ever been done to you, you know you would not accept it. You only accept it because Mardy is a Knick.

I would actually accept it if it was done to me, but the person giving the foul better be able to receive one and accept it.

[Edited by - NYKBocker on 12-21-2006 09:13 AM]

liar

[Edited by - bippity10 on 12-21-2006 1:17 PM]
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Mardy: I'd goon him again.
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