What you need to know about this team right now, is they may be one of the stronger front courts in the league by that time if everyone works on their game.....

Why does wade stay in miami without shaq? who is in cleveland to keep lebron there, what talent is around that will want to go there? Is Bosh a given to stay in Toronto?

Lee, Curry, Balkman, Frye, Q, Jefferies

Expiring deals of Marbury, Francis and granted we don't make any stupid moves we are in a good position......

Or you could look to move the following which I would do Q, Crawford ASAP!

Keep working with Balkman make him the sf once he gets a jumper, have jefferies be your stopper at the four, lee be your bench frontcourt player and move a player like Frye once his value is up, you can do any number of things.......

We are in a better position than Miami and Cleveland in the long term, the cavs are locked in on a few deal that are terrible, yes they have superstars but they may look for a change.....

I could see lebron leaving to play in jersey, the nets should look to move kidd and carter and get some young talent in there, to go with jefferson, kristic, and williams

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by MS:


Why does wade stay in miami without shaq? who is in cleveland to keep lebron there, what talent is around that will want to go there? Is Bosh a given to stay in Toronto?

Money

Why does the Knick frontcourt automatically stay together? Especially since 3, if not 4, of them play the same position?

NY has the money to pay their players, if we some how get under the cap, then we can make some noise in the free agent market.
If the core exists and Curry is the franchise, then the superstar free agents will want to come to NY. Plain and simple. Miami is not Miami without Shaq, just like the Lakers are not the LAkers without shaq. The big X Factor is CURRRY, and right now drinking the kool-aid the future is bright. :)

Posted by Michael6835:

Posted by Bippity10:

Posted by babyKnicks:

Posted by islesfan:

LeBron in Cleveland

Dwight in Orlando

Bosh and Bargnani in Toronto

Wade in Miami

Perhaps Oden in Philly

In 3 years those players and their teams will all be much better than the Knicks and keeping them out of the second round much less the NBA finals. And that's a best case scenario.

can we trade frye for any of those guys?

Again a coach should not be blamed for a GM getting off track. A GM should be hiring a coach that fits HIS PLAN. The 5 coach'es he's hired and fired indicate that he was unsure of what he was doing. His job is not to do what the coach thinks. His job is to find the right coach for the plan that he is executing and then not undermine that coach in order to save his own short-term asse.

You cannot fool fans. We see that Isiah is adjusting. He is not adjusting because this is his plan all along. He is adjusting because he is finally realizing that slapping "big name talents" on a roster doesn't work. He is adjusting because he is learning NY and now realizing that NY fans don't want an and1 team, but guys that win. Instead of wasting millions signing and trading for Taylor and Rose and Big James and Jalen, he could have stood pat and gotten to a similar point without embarrassing his franchise and leading coach's out by security guards etc.

We have good young players. but this is only part of the picture.

Any GM in the league would have hired Larry "paycheck" Brown. NY was the only one that could afford his new price tag. When you pay a coach that much money and respect (that he deserves based on his prior ventures) you have to listen to that coach. Even if it might be against what u want to do. So you are mad at him because he made some mistakes in the beginning and now seems to have learned from his mistakes. (Big James was a big mistake and is worthless, malik on the other hand serves a purpose right now, he is the vocal veteran who won 2rings on a young team) I'm not sure about taylor specifics but didnt we get pics for him and are those pics not lee, balkman, etc. someone correct me, i might be off.

I think you guys miss the point. And it's clear that you aren't listening. I'm not angry at Isiah. I'm not pouting in a corner saying oh my god he has good players but I'm mad at him so I won't notice. Noone is saying that. I think a lot of you guys are inventing this as a scenario to match your opinions. What people are saying is that they like the young players. Everyone likes David Lee and Q. Most like Nate and Frye and Jamal and Balkman etc. There is no evidence that people on this site hate Isiah for bringing these players in. We all recognize this, so stop with this baby nonsense about fans not seeing it.

What fans are telling you is that based on the moves that Isiah has made for this team they do not trust him to take advantage of the youth he has in place. They feel that there are better GM's out there for the job. They rightfully feel we don't have a championship team now(noone can dispute this), changes need to be made and that Isiah is not the guy to take us there. You think otherwise, that's perfectly fine. But why do you find it in your heart to get on someone that doesn't feel that way?

I disagree with Islesfan a lot concerning his assessment of some of the guys on the roster(yet somehow am lumped in with him). But I have to say this, a lot of what he says about guys track records and what it takes to build a title contender are 100% dead on. He may have a borderline irrational hatred for Isiah. But does that mean what he has said about his past is wrong? I'm not entirely sure. Isiah has a lot to prove. As of this moment he is talking about competing in 3 to 4 years. Fine. But if you look at the big picture, that's 11 years since Patrick. And a 6-7 year plan for Isiah. I'm with Islesfan I'm not confident that this guy can get us there. Let him coach and bring in some proven winners to this organization. Guys willing to stand up to Dolan. Enough people that havent' done it before.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 12-14-2006 3:11 PM]

11 years to compete is the trademark for a bad organization

Posted by Michael6835:

Posted by TMS:

"If we continue to do as good a job with Eddy [Curry], then you've got the 5 and the All-Star," Thomas began, laying out his championship thought process, starting with the center. "My blueprint when I'm looking back at my Indiana team, you make an All-Star, then you make a defensive player, you get somebody on the all-defensive team jeffries. Then somewhere along the line we've got to make another [All-Star] from this young group crawford, lee, qrich?, then you can talk along those lines. I don't think we're that far away."
...
Later, Thomas talked again about the young core and said "... then you're talking three, four years down the road, you've got a shot to play for it."
...
Before last night's win, Isiah was at it again, singing his celebration song. "We have a nice young core," he said, "... we're not that far away from being a very good basketball team."

when Isiah was hired, all he kept talking about was building to become a championship calibre team... his idea of bringing in an Allstar was supposed to be filled w/his trade for Marbury, & bringing in guys like Tim Thomas & Nazr Mohammed was supposed to be some of the filler glue pieces... obviously that was all a miserable failure... now he's spinning his plan on the fly, saying Curry is the Allstar & that the other players around him fill the other holes of the role players to fit around him.

see, this is what i DON'T like about Isiah... he really has no plan... he's brought in some good young talent & for that i give him props, but he fails to own up to the bad moves he's made that have been proven to be failures under the guise that this is all part of his rebuilding plan... NY fans aren't stupid & we know what's real & what's not... this team IS on the right track... NOW... that's because Isiah & Dolan have stopped trying to make big fix it all moves bringing in overpaid veteran talent & have seemingly finally committed to developing the youth & form a core to build around... Isiah would be so much more credible in the eyes of Knick fans if he would just own up to the past mistakes he's made & make it known that he's learned from them & is committed now to that new plan, which should have been the plan all along... the best way he could do that is to get rid of Marbury imo... that single trade has defined his tenure here, & if he would reverse course on that move & admit that it was a failure, then he would gain some more credibility in the eyes of many Knick fans imho... but if he keeps trying to spin every mistake he makes as positives, then all he's doing is hurting his own already tainted image as a used car salesman.

so your mad because he doesn't want to admit he made mistakes. The old cliche statement applies here, hindsight is 20/20.

IT's worst move was accquiring Jerome James and Steve Francis. Why ? There was no excuse for bringing them in, they didnt serve a purpose.

The other moves in "hindsight" ended up being bad, when he traded for steph, at the time it was a great move. You have to crawl before you walk and when you learn to walk you still fall. I think Thomas and Dolan have it figured out now, there new commitment to be a little more financially responsible might be the key to it all. No stupid signings and glad to hear we're not trying to get AI.

What you can hope for is that they take care of the young guys and extend their contract before free agency. It would be a crime to lose lee to free agency and robinson too.

I'm not mad because he doesn't admit to making mistakes... please get what I'm saying here... I'm saying what I don't like about him & what I feel makes him lose credibility with alot of Knick fans is when he tries to spin every thing into it all being part of his grand scheme all along... the fact that Marbury ended up being a complete & utter failure is directly reflectable on him because he came in with a well known history of being a selfish me first type player that had issues getting along w/teammates on the previous teams he'd played for, yet Isiah took the chance anyway thinking he could reform him if he brought him back home to NY... it was a starphuch move of the 1st order (as Nalod would put it), & it blew up in his face... what I'm bothered by is the fact that he's not willing to cut his losses & continues to try & make it work w/Marbury in NY, when it's pretty clear to anyone who's been watching this team that it's never going to work out for him here... I'd like him to stop trying to force the issue w/Marbury, & move forward for the good of the franchise.

as for the other moves ending up being bad in "hindsight", that's not the case with every move he made since that Marbury trade... case in point, everyone knew Jerome James to be a waste of a signing (except for maybe Isiah & rvhoss that is), & yet he signed this guy to the full MLE... is it hindsight to say that was a horrible signing when just about everyone knew that would end up being a horrible decision on Isiah's part? & what about that signing of Vin Baker a couple years ago, which ended up being a complete & utter waste of time & went against his plan to "get younger & more athletic"? is it hindsight to say that was a mistake when the predominant opinion was that it was a nonsensical move from the very beginning?

look dude, i'm not 1 of these blind haters of Isiah who harp on every negative move he's made on every thread... i'm simply trying to make a point here that I believe he'd gain alot more credibility in the minds of disgruntled Knick fans if he didn't try & spin everything & basically lie to our faces that all of this was part of some grand master plan he'd concocted from the very beginning to make this team into a championship contender... it wasn't... he's changed his plan on the fly at least 2 or 3 times since he's been here because the moves he made to address the previous plans failed horribly... now the Knicks are content to stick w/developing the youth largely because the owner has decided enough was enough & that he'd no longer be supporting any more Marbury type acquisitions... that was not Isiah's decision.

& i agree w/u, i'm glad Dolan's finally come to that conclusion, that starphuch type trades are NOT going to save this franchise... that the best course of action is to keep acquiring young talent & develop them into a core that we can build around... Isiah deserves alot of credit for bringing that young talent in here, I have no problem admitting that, & I'm happy with what I'm seeing so far out of Curry, Lee, Jefferies, Q Rich, Balkman, Nate & Jamal... what I want to see is Marbury & Francis let go & for Isiah to stay the course now & stick to the plan... enough w/the spin doctoring... that's all i'm saying.

Posted by TMS:

"If we continue to do as good a job with Eddy [Curry], then you've got the 5 and the All-Star," Thomas began, laying out his championship thought process, starting with the center. "My blueprint when I'm looking back at my Indiana team, you make an All-Star, then you make a defensive player, you get somebody on the all-defensive team jeffries. Then somewhere along the line we've got to make another [All-Star] from this young group crawford, lee, qrich?, then you can talk along those lines. I don't think we're that far away."
...
Later, Thomas talked again about the young core and said "... then you're talking three, four years down the road, you've got a shot to play for it."
...
Before last night's win, Isiah was at it again, singing his celebration song. "We have a nice young core," he said, "... we're not that far away from being a very good basketball team."

when Isiah was hired, all he kept talking about was building to become a championship calibre team... his idea of bringing in an Allstar was supposed to be filled w/his trade for Marbury, & bringing in guys like Tim Thomas & Nazr Mohammed was supposed to be some of the filler glue pieces... obviously that was all a miserable failure... now he's spinning his plan on the fly, saying Curry is the Allstar & that the other players around him fill the other holes of the role players to fit around him.

see, this is what i DON'T like about Isiah... he really has no plan... he's brought in some good young talent & for that i give him props, but he fails to own up to the bad moves he's made that have been proven to be failures under the guise that this is all part of his rebuilding plan... NY fans aren't stupid & we know what's real & what's not... this team IS on the right track... NOW... that's because Isiah & Dolan have stopped trying to make big fix it all moves bringing in overpaid veteran talent & have seemingly finally committed to developing the youth & form a core to build around... Isiah would be so much more credible in the eyes of Knick fans if he would just own up to the past mistakes he's made & make it known that he's learned from them & is committed now to that new plan, which should have been the plan all along... the best way he could do that is to get rid of Marbury imo... that single trade has defined his tenure here, & if he would reverse course on that move & admit that it was a failure, then he would gain some more credibility in the eyes of many Knick fans imho... but if he keeps trying to spin every mistake he makes as positives, then all he's doing is hurting his own already tainted image as a used car salesman.

When Isiah was hired. The first thing Dolan said at his press confrence was that he demanded playoffs. We had Alan Houston who would still be on the books today. Houston wasn't really an injury problem at that time. Isiah overpaid for Marbury who had an overpaid price tag. I don't believe for one second that TT & Muhammad were the glue to Isiahs championship dream. But they improved the talent where we could make a play for better piecies later on.

Just say if Houston stayed healthy and we won 41games the first yr and 46 with Marbury-Houston-TT-KT-Muhammad the next. Everyone from TT to KT to Muhammad value is now good, and you could get more than you could get with KVH-KT-Doleac. TT has the same contract length as KVH who is shot at this point in his career. If a quality big man becomes available you have TT-KT-Muhammad-Sweetmey-Mutombo available to dangle for upgrades. Now if a Eddie Curry becomes avaiable a pacage of KT-Muhammad and a well protected pick would be more than enough. Isiah then you can factor in Isiah keeping draft picks if his core is solid enough where he wouldn't have to make big panic trades and just draft well. Grabbing up the David Lee's, Balkmans, Arizas, Nate Robinsons or better with better picks. The team would have been good enough to keep Dolan off him since they would be making playoffs. While he focused on building a real contender probably around Marbury-Houston & finding a stud frontcour player.

Instead Houston goes down. Forcing us to make a panic blockbuster for Crawford. Which we can blame Isiah for since if he wouldn't have overpaid for Marbury and kept a draft pick or a piece. Or just got a less talented player for less(All those who hated the trade at the time and voiced it were 100% right, though if Houston didn't go down it would have been a different story). Then we would have been able to just draft a SG or something. Though we still had the option of trading Sweetney for a quality SG and avoid a blockbuster deal. But Sweetney look real good down the stretch of his rookie season under Mutombo & Muhammad. So a lot of us though we had a very good young prospect for a team starved for one. The trade value wise was pretty good for Crawford. But Mutombo's size definatly was missed forcing everyone to play bigger roles in the frontcourt. If we could have kept Mutombo and landed a SG to replace Houston we would have faired a lot better.

The team struggles with its lack of atheltism, shooting, and defensive players forcing Isiah to try and aquire picks to rebuid/retool the team for the future. So he trades Muhammad for Malik Rose and 2 draft picks(David Lee & Mardy Collins). Thinking he can make KT expendable & add more talent and another pick and role option for Marbury he also trades Vin Baker, Muchie Norris & a 2nd rd pick for Mo Taylor(Im guessing) Which was a flat out horrible move. With no center now going into the offseason. He signs Jerome James which was another horrible move to a 5yr 30mil contract. He then also drafts Channing Frye. With Frye, Taylor, Rose. KT is now available. Since we need an upgrade at G/F & we need a backup PG for Marbury. Isiah trades KT for Q Richardson & Nate Robinson.

I don't really need to say the rest. And I left out a lot of cuts and everything about the coaches. Though I will say something real quick about Larry Brown. But one thing I give Isiah was though he did make some horrible moves and overpaid on his trades. His goal was allways to make us a championship contender. Marbury trade, Curry trade, Larry Brown signing. Call those star phucks and bad moves if you want but he was trying to make a contender and it backfired. Dolan put him in a bad position demanding playoffs right off the bat. But its not all Dolan since there are some moves Isiah shouldn't have made reguardless. Layden on the other hand was happy to be mediocre. Just sneaking into the playoffs would have been more than enough for him. He would trade picks or only draft based on only trying to make playoffs. He would never hire a Larry Brown. Don Chaney would still be our coach if Layden was still our GM. Isiah took the risk with Brown to try and make us a contender. It just backfired. He could have easily just let Herb Williams coach and never risk losing power or putting himself in the position he did.

With all that said this team as of right now is going in a good direction. If he is fired by the end of the yr. He is leaving the next GM & Coach with a lot of good pieces to turn us into a contender. And if he deos stay. As long as he doesn't make any more blockbuster unless its a no brainer or Jerome James type of signings and continues to just draft well and balance this team out. He can still turn this thing around.

Posted by TMS:

newyork, that's an excellent analysis & all completely fair... again, i'm not ragging on Isiah for all his bad moves here for the sake of ragging on him... that's never been my motive & you know it... i think i've been very fair & given Isiah the benefit of the doubt in every move he's ever made... i do however feel that he has failed to own up to some of his moves being big mistakes (i.e. Marbury, Big Turd James, Vin Baker)... i don't expect every one of a GM's moves to be great ones... & i don't doubt that Isiah's motivating goal has always been to bring this team closer to a championship (though I can understand those who doubt that to be true)... none of that is in debate here as far as i'm concerned.

the point of my post is that Isiah could stand to gain alot more credibility if he would stop trying to spin everything as part of his grand scheme, as if everything was carefully laid out ahead of time rather than him concocting these moves on the fly to cover up for other moves he's made that haven't worked out... i've spoken alot about the players on this team needing to be held accountable for their play, & that also needs to apply to the GM & head coach Isiah... he needs to step up & take responsibility for the state of the team & stop trying to lay blame on ridiculous side factors like the fans booing & the media's supposed "anti-Isiah" agenda... all the spin doctoring is hurting his credibility w/the fans (whatever is left at this point)

My post wasn't mean't as a disagreement to yours. Just add to it.

Michael, i agree w/everything you just said except for that last statement... i think this team would be so much better off w/o Marbury... i've stated that case numerous times on other threads... i really think they play w/a much better chemistry & energy when he's off the floor, & i really don't want to see him playing in games down the stretch when every possession is essential, because he looks completely & utterly clueless of what to do with the ball in high pressure situations... his confidence is shot & i don't see him ever regaining it again here in NY... a change of scenery would probably benefit him as well as it would the Knicks... i think it's time for Isiah & Marbury to part ways, for the good of this franchise.

obviously i don't mean for Isiah to say "getting Marbury was a mistake" while he's still on the roster... buying him out or benching him even would be enough for me... since benching him would probably cause Marbury to sulk & be a malcontent, i feel that buying him out is our only & best option at this point.