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All-Star center or not ISIAH MUST GO
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efw
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12/11/2006  2:24 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by efw:
Posted by MS:

1. Jerome James
2. Steve Francis

agreed
3. Not protecting those picks in the top 5 which was just plain stupid

Paxson said the trade wouldn't have happened if they were protected. So, it wasn't stupid, it was a necessity. The fallout of the whole deal still remains to be seen.
Then Paxon's option was watch Eddy go take a 1 year MLE deal with someone and lose him for nothing. Sorry, I call BULLSH!T. We had ALL the leverage. Eddy was NOT going to be a Bull last year, and everyone knew it. A good GM tells Pax "I've got JAckie, Jerome and Channing. I'm OK at center. Call me if you change your mind about the top5 protection."

End of story. Forget about what happens in the future. Its irrelevent. That was a bad trade because Isiah got hosed.

It wasn't that simple. The Bulls offered Eddy a long term deal, which I bet Eddy (with all the health concerns) would've taken instead of risking everything on a one-year contract. If I was Eddy's agent, I wouldn't risk a one-year deal - I'd tell him take the 5 or 6 year deal (or whatever it was) and play for a second contract later.

I'm sure we could've kept the picks if we had included Frye but I woulnd't have done it and still wouldn't. And he gave them the picks when Paxson asked for Lee.

It's possible a more experienced GM would've had a better result (top 3 protection, no swap, etc) but you have to give to get and to say the outcome doesn't matter is silly. Of course it matters. Are you going to judge the outcome of an Iverson trade on its particulars or on Iverson's impact on his new team over the next two or three years?
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BigSm00th
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12/11/2006  2:25 PM
isiah sucks
#Knickstaps
fishmike
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12/11/2006  2:25 PM
MS, I'm not defending Isiah. He's sucked here. The thing West hasnt done is hurt their future. He never traded future unprotected picks, but he's done very little to improve Memphis. Probably the best thing he did was fire Sidney Lowe and put Hubie in there.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
JohnWallace44
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12/11/2006  2:29 PM
What do you want to get with Isiah gone? It was a mess before he got here and it continues to be a mess. Did we have more reason to be optimistic running Othello and Frank Williams out there or the current group?

The answer is not coming with another coach or GM at this point. I.T. should be restricted to deals that do not add to the payroll or cost draft picks, which he is right now. Took a while, but that's where we are.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
fishmike
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12/11/2006  2:29 PM
Posted by efw:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by efw:
Posted by MS:

1. Jerome James
2. Steve Francis

agreed
3. Not protecting those picks in the top 5 which was just plain stupid

Paxson said the trade wouldn't have happened if they were protected. So, it wasn't stupid, it was a necessity. The fallout of the whole deal still remains to be seen.
Then Paxon's option was watch Eddy go take a 1 year MLE deal with someone and lose him for nothing. Sorry, I call BULLSH!T. We had ALL the leverage. Eddy was NOT going to be a Bull last year, and everyone knew it. A good GM tells Pax "I've got JAckie, Jerome and Channing. I'm OK at center. Call me if you change your mind about the top5 protection."

End of story. Forget about what happens in the future. Its irrelevent. That was a bad trade because Isiah got hosed.

It wasn't that simple. The Bulls offered Eddy a long term deal, which I bet Eddy (with all the health concerns) would've taken instead of risking everything on a one-year contract. If I was Eddy's agent, I wouldn't risk a one-year deal - I'd tell him take the 5 or 6 year deal (or whatever it was) and play for a second contract later.

I'm sure we could've kept the picks if we had included Frye but I woulnd't have done it and still wouldn't. And he gave them the picks when Paxson asked for Lee.

It's possible a more experienced GM would've had a better result (top 3 protection, no swap, etc) but you have to give to get and to say the outcome doesn't matter is silly. Of course it matters. Are you going to judge the outcome of an Iverson trade on its particulars or on Iverson's impact on his new team over the next two or three years?
Eddy wasnt signing with the Bulls, its was plain as day. I remember that token contract they offered. Did we forget it was attached to a DNA test that Eddy (rightfully) refused to take? Eddy wasnt taking a DNA test, and Pax wasnt signing him without it. They said if he failed they would give him something like $100k for 50 years. It was a joke. Everyone (except Isiah) knew EC would not be a Bull.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nyk4ever
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12/11/2006  2:33 PM
Memphis has won 45 games 3 of the 4 years that West has been there! Anyone who says he hasn't done a good job there needs to look again. Look at his draft picks too. Rudy Gay, Hakim Warrick, Kyle Lowery. West has done yet another fine job with a team.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
TMS
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12/11/2006  2:34 PM
Posted by Swishfm3:
Posted by TMS:

i don't have a problem w/Isiah coaching this team & giving his input on draft choices as long as we get another GM to make the personnel decisions & hirings... i definitely think Marbury needs to go ASAP, which probably won't happen as long as Isiah's in charge of making personnel decisions... i'd make a strong play for Jerry West.

yeah...Jerry West!! cuz he has done such a great job with that Memphis team

he did a pretty damn good job putting those Lakers championship winning teams together... & MEM has a lot of good young talent on that team... throw in a healthy Pau Gasol & they could be playoff contenders this season IMO.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
nyk4ever
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12/11/2006  2:37 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Swishfm3:
Posted by TMS:

i don't have a problem w/Isiah coaching this team & giving his input on draft choices as long as we get another GM to make the personnel decisions & hirings... i definitely think Marbury needs to go ASAP, which probably won't happen as long as Isiah's in charge of making personnel decisions... i'd make a strong play for Jerry West.

yeah...Jerry West!! cuz he has done such a great job with that Memphis team

he did a pretty damn good job putting those Lakers championship winning teams together... & MEM has a lot of good young talent on that team... throw in a healthy Pau Gasol & they could be playoff contenders this season IMO.

Throw in a healty Eddie Jones as well as a healthy Damon Stoudamire, this team has been playing with a blue cross/blue shield membership so far this year. Wait until all 3 of these guys are back and are playing with Rudy Gay and a much improved Hakim Warrick. Trouble for the Western Conference.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
crzymdups
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12/11/2006  2:38 PM
BOOOOOOOO
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fishmike
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12/11/2006  2:41 PM
I can pretty much promise I have seen more Memphis games over the last 3 years than anyone on this board. When West got there the talent was already there. For all the good players you mentioned coming just as many went out. He brought in Hubie who put in a system and a style of play and got the talent that was already there to mesh.

West's best moves were to hire a guy that would teach and preach defense, then sign Watson and Posey to make it work. It did, and they won some games and were built around 2 players there when West got there.

In 4 years the Griz have ZERO playoff wins. Not one game, and they are pretty much exactly where they were when West got there 4 years ago.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
JohnWallace44
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12/11/2006  2:44 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

Memphis has won 45 games 3 of the 4 years that West has been there! Anyone who says he hasn't done a good job there needs to look again. Look at his draft picks too. Rudy Gay, Hakim Warrick, Kyle Lowery. West has done yet another fine job with a team.

What about the Swift deal and the Cardinal deal? He hasn't been great. Warrick is looking great lately though.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
TMS
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12/11/2006  2:46 PM
that's true, he's not responsible for Pau Gasol, but tell me who else you'd prefer to go after to replace Isiah, fish... at least West has a championship pedigree as an NBA GM.

& please don't say Kiki Vandeweghe.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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12/11/2006  2:48 PM
so lets get this straight... you bring in Jerry West, pay him a ransom and give him the keys to the franchise. 4 years later you ZERO playoff wins. You have no cap space coming soon. Your coach is on thin ice and your season is in the tanker because the franchise player that was here already when West got here is hurt, along with the all important Damon Stoudemire. All this and your going to tell me you think West did a good job?

Did someone mention logic?

Meanwhile some of the guys he's traded away are doing pretty well for themselves and their teams. Anyone watch Battier in Houston? Whats their record again? How did Posey and JW do in Miami last year? Pretty good right? How Gooden fitting in for Cle? OK?

Sorry... Nixluva and Holfresh's arguments pro-Isiah are about as convincing as West's for Memphis. The one thing West has avoided is doing damage. Aside from Cardinal's bad signing he didnt trade away future picks or take on terrible deals (Eddie Jones was pretty bad) to get garbage players back. Isiah has certainly excelled at that
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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12/11/2006  2:52 PM
Posted by TMS:

that's true, he's not responsible for Pau Gasol, but tell me who else you'd prefer to go after to replace Isiah, fish... at least West has a championship pedigree as an NBA GM.

& please don't say Kiki Vandeweghe.
Dude.. I would LOOOOOVE Wesst to be GM here. I still think he's a great GM. My point is West as made moves that havent worked out, but I cant say any of them are actually bad moves. Also I applaud that after 3 playoff sweeps he recognized a need to go in a different direction, even knowing it would cost them wins.

I'm trying to just point out there is a difference between moves that dont work out, and bad moves. West hasnt done a good job because his moves have not worked in Memphis. Isiah has done a BAD job because he's made BAD moves.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Solace
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12/11/2006  2:55 PM
Posted by fishmike:

I'm trying to just point out there is a difference between moves that dont work out, and bad moves. West hasnt done a good job because his moves have not worked in Memphis. Isiah has done a BAD job because he's made BAD moves.

Excellent point.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
JohnWallace44
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12/11/2006  3:03 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by fishmike:

I'm trying to just point out there is a difference between moves that dont work out, and bad moves. West hasnt done a good job because his moves have not worked in Memphis. Isiah has done a BAD job because he's made BAD moves.

Excellent point.


Not convinced... different dollar scales for each franchise. The Cardinal deal to Memphis is on par with the Marburry deal in NY. If you mess up like that in a small market its a huge deal.

That said, I would like to see this team in a couple of years with Gay and Warrick as the centerpieces.

They should trade Gasol for pieces that fit with those two.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
fishmike
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12/11/2006  3:12 PM
different dollar scales, same CBA. If they are desperate to get out of the Cardinal deal they can package him with Warrick for an expiring deal and be done with it. MLE contracts you can do that with. Who's taking Marbury or Francis?

The dollar scale works against us not for us, because we are the only team in it.
That said, I would like to see this team in a couple of years with Gay and Warrick as the centerpieces.
Griz fans were saying that after Gasol's rookie season a long time ago.

Cardinal is the only West deal I thought was poor. Thats my point with all of this. West made deals that didnt work, but how many were really bad? Only that one in my opinion. West is still a great GM. Only a fool would argue that. He hasnt done a good job in Mem and I detailed why.

I can see why someone with your handle would like Warrick, but he's got a lot to prove in the NBA. What position does he play?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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12/11/2006  3:14 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by TMS:

that's true, he's not responsible for Pau Gasol, but tell me who else you'd prefer to go after to replace Isiah, fish... at least West has a championship pedigree as an NBA GM.

& please don't say Kiki Vandeweghe.
Dude.. I would LOOOOOVE Wesst to be GM here. I still think he's a great GM. My point is West as made moves that havent worked out, but I cant say any of them are actually bad moves. Also I applaud that after 3 playoff sweeps he recognized a need to go in a different direction, even knowing it would cost them wins.

I'm trying to just point out there is a difference between moves that dont work out, and bad moves. West hasnt done a good job because his moves have not worked in Memphis. Isiah has done a BAD job because he's made BAD moves.

you mentioned what West had to work with when he got there. Isiah had zilch, including the benefit to sit back and wait for cap room and use of draft picks. He's acquired a nice young, deep nucleus of 26 and under guys like QRich, Curry, DLee, Jefferies, Frye, Balkman, Crawford, Nate.

The only real missteps were Marbury and Francis and Brown - and those are huge misteps, but I think the Marbury one was a function of Dolan demanding he make the playoffs in year one. And the Francis deal was part of trying to work with Brown, which is the biggest, least forgiveable mistake. Isiah's main problem has been working with coaches. And maybe he just needs to be the coach, maybe he's too hands-on to sit back and let someone else coach his roster. He clearly has a vision as far as how to play and Brown didn't agree with it at all, Herb did a decent job at it, without getting wins (remember how Tim Thomas' and Mo Taylor's number sky-rocketed with Herb? he was running a lot of the same post stuff for those guys that is being run for Curry), Lenny had a different system that worked pretty well, but he also had a totally different team.

Again, for the questionable moves, at the end of the day we have a promising young nucleus - including a legit front line. Our backcourt leaves things to be desired, but most of that is Marbury and Francis looking a lot older than they are the last year or so.
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holfresh
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12/11/2006  3:23 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by TMS:

that's true, he's not responsible for Pau Gasol, but tell me who else you'd prefer to go after to replace Isiah, fish... at least West has a championship pedigree as an NBA GM.

& please don't say Kiki Vandeweghe.
Dude.. I would LOOOOOVE Wesst to be GM here. I still think he's a great GM. My point is West as made moves that havent worked out, but I cant say any of them are actually bad moves. Also I applaud that after 3 playoff sweeps he recognized a need to go in a different direction, even knowing it would cost them wins.

I'm trying to just point out there is a difference between moves that dont work out, and bad moves. West hasnt done a good job because his moves have not worked in Memphis. Isiah has done a BAD job because he's made BAD moves.

You're nuts....If you are hanging you hat on those 3 instances of "Bad Move" as the reason Isiah should go then you have no argument...Curry is turning into a stud...You have no idea what Tyrus Thomas is going to be...The Nets drafted a player from Ohio State at the number 2 spot a few years back, his name was Dennis Hopson..Need I say more...Signing JJ had NO impact on the team whatsoever...The Knicks needed a big body in the middle at the time and they had no where to turn...By the way, Frye is a PF and not a center....The Steve Francis trade was all Larry Brown...Larry went over Zeke's head to Dolan for that trade...Dolan said Larry came to him "begging" for that deal to get done....If these are your arguments then it's pretty thin...

fishmike
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12/11/2006  3:24 PM
you mentioned what West had to work with when he got there. Isiah had zilch, including the benefit to sit back and wait for cap room and use of draft picks. He's acquired a nice young, deep nucleus of 26 and under guys like QRich, Curry, DLee, Jefferies, Frye, Balkman, Crawford, Nate.
Again, I dont see the relevance. Because Isiah had less to work with its OK to make a slew of bad moves?

We have no flexibility. Malik, Jerome, Francis and Marbury are going no where.

Lee, Balkman and Nate are nice role players which cost the Knicks what? $50mm? Your going to tell me we couldnt get young players and late first rounders with cash type deals?

Isiah had McDyess and Ward's expiring deals. He had all his future first rounders. He just keeps rolling the dice, spending, trying new coaches, spending and rolling the dice until he's got a roster full of guys he either cant trade or isnt allowed to, he's got no future in the draft and no future in the free agent market. So your right on one thing.. this team damn well better turn out to be good because what you see is what you get.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
All-Star center or not ISIAH MUST GO

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