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the frye is falling
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VDesai
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12/3/2006  1:23 PM
Francis can't close games. He's just a disaster in the 4th quarter.
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bigbeast
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12/3/2006  1:30 PM
Posted by Anji:

Man I felt the same way, until I watched the games. I don't know where Marbury's head is, but it is never in MSG when the game is on. Francis has played twice as smart as Marbury game in and out. Yeah Francis has had some bad turnovers but marbury has too, plus he takes terrible shots and withdraws from the game for Quarters and a half at times. Marbury is really stinking up the place and Francis is leading the team better then him. I know you see it........

I see what you are saying but asking me which one would I rather have end the game is like asking me which way would I rather die Lethal injection, or electricution.....its the same result. We'd be better off when both are gone, but until then..... I would say that Marbury has looked more lively in the past 2 games. if keeps up that energy and aggression, I'd still rather have Mabury at the point over Francis.

I wold lke to see Isiah move Q to the 2 and francis to the bench when Jeff comes back. It should make us a little better defensively.




"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
bigbeast
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12/3/2006  1:30 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by Anji:

Man I felt the same way, until I watched the games. I don't know where Marbury's head is, but it is never in MSG when the game is on. Francis has played twice as smart as Marbury game in and out. Yeah Francis has had some bad turnovers but marbury has too, plus he takes terrible shots and withdraws from the game for Quarters and a half at times. Marbury is really stinking up the place and Francis is leading the team better then him. I know you see it........

I see what you are saying but asking me which one would I rather have end the game is like asking me which way would I rather die Lethal injection, or electricution? Its the same result. We'd be better off when both are gone, but until then..... I would say that Marbury has looked more lively in the past 2 games. if keeps up that energy and aggression, I'd still rather have Mabury at the point over Francis.

I wold lke to see Isiah move Q to the 2 and francis to the bench when Jeff comes back. It should make us a little better defensively.


"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
holfresh
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12/3/2006  1:45 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by holfresh:


I like what I'm seeing to be honest except defensively, we stink...But I think when the players see they are playing hard and not winning they will understand that improvements won't be made until they make defensive stops...We have to stop thinking there is an answer out there waiting to be had at PF...Everyone in the league wants one...As a Knick fan, I have waited until they got the right compliment to Ewing for a Championship run and it never happened...They tried Kiki, Ro Blackman, H20, Starks, Jonny New...Develop the players you have until the right opportunity comes along...We had Dlee and Frye, so we have to work with that....

Marbs legs seems to be getting under him now and Q has been solid all year and Curry is coming along...We can work with that...Let DLee, Frye,Craw,Stevie,Nate, etc battle for the remaining time on this roster...It's a good thing...Until that player come along like Weed did for Detroit...Right now lets work on style of play and changing the culture...I can't wait to see you give Zeke props...it's going to be a blast...


Freshie, just remember, this team is 6-13 and Zeke may not last much longer if he doesn't start winning games and believe me, games against the Raptors are games that Isiah should be winning, not losing. If this team finishes with a record near what it was last year, Zeke ain't getting ANY props. You must still be of the thinking that this team is going to win upwards near 35 games. It's not happening...

Thats where we differ...I think Isiah is well on his way to turning this around...Most here is down on Frye and I'm not too sure why...All these pieces aren't going to get up to speed at the same time...It's not how it works...We are asking 4 to 5 young players to come into their own now so we can win immediately...These things take time..If Curry continues at this pace and develops into the monster that he could be coupled with DLee or Frye coming into their own gets Isiah another year...If we win in the mid 30s and this team certainly can given they are in every game, its really positive...

For you to say this Knicks isn't winning 35 games is telling me you are turning a blind eye to whats been happening the last few weeks with this team...
King1
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12/3/2006  2:03 PM
There is no way you can win with the makeup of this team right now. I would trade Lee or Frye and and package them with Crawford and get a defensive minded perimeter player. The guards dont guard anyone, at least Lee and Frye try and they are getting better. Not one time last night did a guard rotate and help Lee on Bosh. I guarantee that IT isnt that dumb to put Lee on a island with Bosh. The bottomo line is these guys wont play defense, and you will continue to lose until they play some defense.
holfresh
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12/3/2006  2:56 PM
Posted by King1:

There is no way you can win with the makeup of this team right now. I would trade Lee or Frye and and package them with Crawford and get a defensive minded perimeter player. The guards dont guard anyone, at least Lee and Frye try and they are getting better. Not one time last night did a guard rotate and help Lee on Bosh. I guarantee that IT isnt that dumb to put Lee on a island with Bosh. The bottomo line is these guys wont play defense, and you will continue to lose until they play some defense.

Define "win"...Championship no...Make it to the playoffs yes...
nyk4ever
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12/3/2006  3:04 PM
Posted by holfresh:

Define "win"...Championship no...Make it to the playoffs yes...

This is what I don't get. The reason this team won't win a championship is because it doesn't have a franchise player to get them to a championship. By making it to the playoffs you are keeping yourself out of the lottery and keeping yourself away from that franchise player that will get you to a championship. This team has some nice players, guys like Lee, Nate, Balk, Q, and Curry are nice players but they will NEVER allow us to win a championship because they are good enough to MAYBE make the playoffs but they are nowhere near good enough to get us to a championship if they do make the playoffs, thus keeping us out of the lottery.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
SlimPack
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12/3/2006  3:15 PM
Posted by holfresh:



Thats where we differ...I think Isiah is well on his way to turning this around...Most here is down on Frye and I'm not too sure why...All these pieces aren't going to get up to speed at the same time...It's not how it works...We are asking 4 to 5 young players to come into their own now so we can win immediately...These things take time..If Curry continues at this pace and develops into the monster that he could be coupled with DLee or Frye coming into their own gets Isiah another year...If we win in the mid 30s and this team certainly can given they are in every game, its really positive...

For you to say this Knicks isn't winning 35 games is telling me you are turning a blind eye to whats been happening the last few weeks with this team...


if ther knicks win 29 games this year, will you still think that isiah thomas deserves to stay. how about 35? im just curious to know how far your patience extends.
holfresh
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12/3/2006  3:22 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by holfresh:

Define "win"...Championship no...Make it to the playoffs yes...

This is what I don't get. The reason this team won't win a championship is because it doesn't have a franchise player to get them to a championship. By making it to the playoffs you are keeping yourself out of the lottery and keeping yourself away from that franchise player that will get you to a championship. This team has some nice players, guys like Lee, Nate, Balk, Q, and Curry are nice players but they will NEVER allow us to win a championship because they are good enough to MAYBE make the playoffs but they are nowhere near good enough to get us to a championship if they do make the playoffs, thus keeping us out of the lottery.

Getting into the lottery does not GUARANTEE us a Franchise player....Getting a Franchise does not GUARANTEE us a Championship...You can't as an organization tank it in hopes to get that one illusive player that comes to fruition once every 3 or 4 years...Who was that player last year?...Who was that player the year before? Chris Paul and who knew?...Dwight Howard and Oden comes along once every 3 or 4 years, maybe if you are lucky...Who was the last big time Center to come out before Howard and Okafor?...It's really not worth it...You build with what you have...



[Edited by - holfresh on 12-03-2006 3:24 PM]
martin
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12/3/2006  3:29 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by holfresh:

Define "win"...Championship no...Make it to the playoffs yes...

This is what I don't get. The reason this team won't win a championship is because it doesn't have a franchise player to get them to a championship. By making it to the playoffs you are keeping yourself out of the lottery and keeping yourself away from that franchise player that will get you to a championship. This team has some nice players, guys like Lee, Nate, Balk, Q, and Curry are nice players but they will NEVER allow us to win a championship because they are good enough to MAYBE make the playoffs but they are nowhere near good enough to get us to a championship if they do make the playoffs, thus keeping us out of the lottery.

Getting into the lottery does not GUARANTEE us a Franchise player....Getting a Franchise does not GUARANTEE us a Championship...You can't as an organization tank it in hopes to get that one illusive player that comes to fruition once every 3 or 4 years...Who was that player last year?...Who was that player the year before? Chris Paul and who knew?...Dwight Howard and Oden comes along once every 3 or 4 years, maybe if you are lucky...Who was the last big time Center to come out before Howard and Okafor?...It's really not worth it...You build with what you have...



[Edited by - holfresh on 12-03-2006 3:24 PM]

How about the opposite though. NOT having a franchise player pretty much guarantees that you WON"T win a championship.

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gunsnewing
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12/3/2006  3:39 PM
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nyk4ever
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12/3/2006  3:40 PM
Posted by holfresh:


Getting into the lottery does not GUARANTEE us a Franchise player....Getting a Franchise does not GUARANTEE us a Championship...You can't as an organization tank it in hopes to get that one illusive player that comes to fruition once every 3 or 4 years...Who was that player last year?...Who was that player the year before? Chris Paul and who knew?...Dwight Howard and Oden comes along once every 3 or 4 years, maybe if you are lucky...Who was the last big time Center to come out before Howard and Okafor?...It's really not worth it...You build with what you have...



[Edited by - holfresh on 12-03-2006 3:24 PM]

This is exactly why the Knicks won't win a championship under current thinking. You don't win with a bunch of role players, you NEED a franchise player. Yes I know the Pistons did it without a franchise player but they had all exceptional players, every player that started for the Pistons during that championship run is better than any current Knick.

Franchise players are needed for championship runs. You have to acquire a franchise player first and then surround him with guys that fit a certain role, NOT the other way around because you'll never get the franchise guy if you do it backwards. Yes the Heat did it with Shaq but a guy like Shaq gets traded once every 20-30 years and the Heat already had Dwayne Wade who is a franchise player himself.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
holfresh
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12/3/2006  3:41 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by holfresh:

Define "win"...Championship no...Make it to the playoffs yes...

This is what I don't get. The reason this team won't win a championship is because it doesn't have a franchise player to get them to a championship. By making it to the playoffs you are keeping yourself out of the lottery and keeping yourself away from that franchise player that will get you to a championship. This team has some nice players, guys like Lee, Nate, Balk, Q, and Curry are nice players but they will NEVER allow us to win a championship because they are good enough to MAYBE make the playoffs but they are nowhere near good enough to get us to a championship if they do make the playoffs, thus keeping us out of the lottery.

Getting into the lottery does not GUARANTEE us a Franchise player....Getting a Franchise does not GUARANTEE us a Championship...You can't as an organization tank it in hopes to get that one illusive player that comes to fruition once every 3 or 4 years...Who was that player last year?...Who was that player the year before? Chris Paul and who knew?...Dwight Howard and Oden comes along once every 3 or 4 years, maybe if you are lucky...Who was the last big time Center to come out before Howard and Okafor?...It's really not worth it...You build with what you have...



[Edited by - holfresh on 12-03-2006 3:24 PM]

How about the opposite though. NOT having a franchise player pretty much guarantees that you WON"T win a championship.

Detroit kills that argument too....I can run off about 15 NBA team that has "franchise players" that are not even close to winning anything...
nyk4ever
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12/3/2006  3:46 PM
Posted by holfresh:


Detroit kills that argument too....I can run off about 15 NBA team that has "franchise players" that are not even close to winning anything...


Detroit doesn't kill any argument. They were the first team in YEARS to win a championship without a clearcut franchise player and every player in their starting lineup was and still is better than any current Knick.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
gunsnewing
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12/3/2006  3:46 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by martin:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by holfresh:

Define "win"...Championship no...Make it to the playoffs yes...

This is what I don't get. The reason this team won't win a championship is because it doesn't have a franchise player to get them to a championship. By making it to the playoffs you are keeping yourself out of the lottery and keeping yourself away from that franchise player that will get you to a championship. This team has some nice players, guys like Lee, Nate, Balk, Q, and Curry are nice players but they will NEVER allow us to win a championship because they are good enough to MAYBE make the playoffs but they are nowhere near good enough to get us to a championship if they do make the playoffs, thus keeping us out of the lottery.

Getting into the lottery does not GUARANTEE us a Franchise player....Getting a Franchise does not GUARANTEE us a Championship...You can't as an organization tank it in hopes to get that one illusive player that comes to fruition once every 3 or 4 years...Who was that player last year?...Who was that player the year before? Chris Paul and who knew?...Dwight Howard and Oden comes along once every 3 or 4 years, maybe if you are lucky...Who was the last big time Center to come out before Howard and Okafor?...It's really not worth it...You build with what you have...



[Edited by - holfresh on 12-03-2006 3:24 PM]

How about the opposite though. NOT having a franchise player pretty much guarantees that you WON"T win a championship.

Detroit kills that argument too....I can run off about 15 NBA team that has "franchise players" that are not even close to winning anything...



surround them with guys like lee, nate, balkman, jeffries, curry & they will win. a guy like Pierce for example
holfresh
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12/3/2006  3:59 PM

You guys have this all wrong....When Phoenix assembled it's current team..They weren't thinking about drafting "franchise players" to be successful...When Dallas assembled their team, they weren't thinking about getting a Franchise player either, Dirk exceeded expectation...Lakers weren't thiking Franchise player either...They won 3 championships through trades...You think Utah is thinking "franchise Player"....Sacramento has a nice run...Who was the franchise player they drafted....Indiana was built through trades...Houston has two franchise players, how is it working out for them, Nets arguable has two as well..Toronto has one,Philly,Denver Minny, Seattle..and the list goes on...Chicago has drafted about 5 "franchise players since Micheal left, how is that working out for them...The lottery is not the holy grail to winning Championships and being successful...Developing young players, drafting and trading wisely works as well...Take off the blinders and throw out the kool aid from the Patrick Ewing days...Oh by the way, that didn't win us a Championship either...
Anji
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12/3/2006  4:06 PM
YOu think toooo much Hol......... the last line is classic.
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
nyk4ever
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12/3/2006  4:09 PM
Posted by holfresh:


You guys have this all wrong....When Phoenix assembled it's current team..They weren't thinking about drafting "franchise players" to be successful...When Dallas assembled their team, they weren't thinking about getting a Franchise player either, Dirk exceeded expectation...Lakers weren't thiking Franchise player either...They won 3 championships through trades...You think Utah is thinking "franchise Player"....Sacramento has a nice run...Who was the franchise player they drafted....Indiana was built through trades...Houston has two franchise players, how is it working out for them, Nets arguable has two as well..Toronto has one,Philly,Denver Minny, Seattle..and the list goes on...Chicago has drafted about 5 "franchise players since Micheal left, how is that working out for them...The lottery is not the holy grail to winning Championships and being successful...Developing young players, drafting and trading wisely works as well...Take off the blinders and throw out the kool aid from the Patrick Ewing days...Oh by the way, that didn't win us a Championship either...




Phoenix is a terrible argument they drafted Amare Stoudamire, theres no doubt he's a franchise player. They also had Shawn Marion who is a fringe franchise player, they then signed Steve Nash who himself is a franchise player.

Dirk did not exceed expectations, and even he did, it doesn't matter, he was still selected 9th ahead of Paul Pierce who he himself is a franchise player.

LA traded for Kobe Bryant on draft-night, they had Charlotte select him for them because they weren't high enough on the draft list to draft him themselves.

Houston is a top team in the league if McGrady could just stay healthy and they drafted Yao Ming, not too shabby.


If you thinking building this team around a bunch role-players and then adding a franchise player(somehow)is the way to go, so be it. No ones going to change your mind but I'm telling you right now, this team will never come close to a championship without a franchise player.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 12-03-2006 4:09 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
martin
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12/3/2006  4:11 PM
Posted by holfresh:


You guys have this all wrong....When Phoenix assembled it's current team..They weren't thinking about drafting "franchise players" to be successful...When Dallas assembled their team, they weren't thinking about getting a Franchise player either, Dirk exceeded expectation...Lakers weren't thiking Franchise player either...They won 3 championships through trades...You think Utah is thinking "franchise Player"....Sacramento has a nice run...Who was the franchise player they drafted....Indiana was built through trades...Houston has two franchise players, how is it working out for them, Nets arguable has two as well..Toronto has one,Philly,Denver Minny, Seattle..and the list goes on...Chicago has drafted about 5 "franchise players since Micheal left, how is that working out for them...The lottery is not the holy grail to winning Championships and being successful...Developing young players, drafting and trading wisely works as well...Take off the blinders and throw out the kool aid from the Patrick Ewing days...Oh by the way, that didn't win us a Championship either...

hol, your arguments are kinda weak. If you can't draft a franchise player ala the Lakers (oh, BTW, they did draft Kobe, he's OK as Franchise) you have have CAP ROOM to trade or acquire one. That's the other half of the situation Isiah has forgot to manage responsibly.

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holfresh
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12/3/2006  4:20 PM

At the time of the draft, Amare was not thought of as Franchise player talent, he developed into one...Nash was not franchise player talent before the run and gun...I was watching Dallas game Friday night on ESPN ..I forgot what person from Dalls saying they had no idea Dirk would be this kind of player...

Curry is not a role player!!!!....Not a Franchise, yet but certainly not a role..We have no idea what Frye could be..NONE!!!...Don't tell me Frye has lost his game over the summer!!!..You guy evaluate players on a game by game basis...insane...Marbs not a franchise but certainly wasn't a role player all his career....The rest of the crew is more than adequate to get to the playoffs to build some confidence among our young players...Your franchise argument is totally baseless...
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