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DefAndReb
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12/6/2002  11:16 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:


Here let me go down the list

Yao Ming is better than Kurt Thomas
Amare Stoudemire is better than Harrington
Drew Gooden is better than Latrell sprewell
Caron Butler is nowhere near as good as Allan houston but he is not swiss cheese
Dujuan wagner is better than all of our PGs combined


My team of
7-5 yao Ming
6-10 Amere stoudemire
6-10 Drew Gooden
6-7 Caron Butler
6-2 Dujuan Wagner

would destroy any combination of Knicks you put together

That's so wrong it hurts to read it.

I'll give you this. Yao Ming IS better than Kurt Thomas at center, mainly because Kurt Thomas is NOT a center. Put Yao at SF, and Kurt will spank his ass.

Harrington IS BETTER THAN stoudemire RIGHT NOW. If you said IN TWO YEARS Amare will be better, then I'd agree. Gooden, Butler, Wagner? Are you kidding me? Yes, that team SHOULD be better than what we have now IN TWO OR THREE YEARS, but you put your five against the Knicks right now, and your five will get their candy asses kicked. Why? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PLAY DEFENSE, THEY CAN'T RUN THE PLAYS, THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO GEL!!!!! Wagner isn't even a point guard for crying out loud! What are you smoking?! He'll be just fine at small SG in 2004, especially with the playing time he'll get in Cleveland. But for now, all he can do is take lots of shots and score. Scoring is not as important as defense. Why did it take Jordan so many years to really be a good player? Because all he did was hog the ball and make highlight reels. When he started to play great defense and pass the ball at the right time, then, and only then, was he a great player. Same with Kobe.

Of your five, Yao is the only one who can play right now, and even he is a little rough around the edges. You pull names like Magic and Bird out of your ass? Those guys were in their early 20's when they hit this league, they were already seasoned and ready to go, just like Duncan was when he came in. All these 18, 19 year old guys can't play the game well enough to be great players, YET.

You seem to think that scoring is what makes a good player. If that's the case, then you don't know what you're talking about. Look at Memphis. Gasol is going to be great, and so is Gooden. But right now, they stink. They stink like ten day old fish tacos. All they do is shoot shoot shoot, while the other team strips the ball, hits the boards, and runs plays that create open shots.

Your five SUCK compared to the Knicks. That's the truth. Come 2007-2008, your five will be bigtime.
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BRIGGS
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12/7/2002  12:24 AM
What are you talking about? the Knicks stink-they are AWFUL- that team would MAUl the Knicks on the boards --who cares if dujuan is a pure PG or not he is head and shoulders better than anything the Knicks could put on him at the point you just havent seen these guys play heck amere did more than any knick in 19 mts of play tonight against the pacers 15 pts 8 reb

how could the knicks contend with an athletic frontline of
7-5
6-10
6-10
6-7
6-2

you think that amere cant check harrington? or gooden couldnt check sprewell? comeon! come on dude get off the kick you mean the knicks would have TREMENDOUS problems matching up. they could lob the ball into yao and the knicks would be forced to jumpshooot brcause they could never penetrate that frontline HECK they couldnt stop Tony battie and vin baker tonight! tony delk who is not a true PG went around howard eisley like he wasnt there and dujuan wagner is better than tony delk! I dont care if he s 19 48 or 6 hes BETTER. better yet heck Ill take lebron emeka okafor carmelo anthony chris bosh and chris thomas[not 1 nba game] and they would kick the knicks azz. the knicks have 0 athletes on their team they have no length they are old and they are a jumpshooting team that is slow and rebound like crp.

by the way magic was 20 years old when he won the championship thats 20 go check it

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killacross
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12/7/2002  2:18 AM
re: DefAndReb's most recent post


i completely agree. stoudemire and gooden might be able to put on a good show and create some sportscenter highlights... but as of right now they are not very good NBA players. Unless you are some freek who only cares about individual stats, you can see that young guys like stoudemire and gooden are always found out of place and have poor footwork on defense, offense, rebound, and everything inbetween. They are both athletic freeks so they can make up for a little of what they are currently lacking. They will be very very good players given a few more years.. but as of right now... their fundamentals and sense of an NBA game are very poor.


Right now...
I would take ming over KT

I would take stoudemire over Othella because the knicks need a shot blocker that badly right now.. and anything othella can do, KT can do better

YOu can even compare gooden and spree... a PF with a natural SG???

I havent seen butler play in the pros yet.. so i cant comment on that one

Just as DefAndReb said.. wagner is not even a pg. He is puting up decent numbers because he is chuckin up shots like not other(although i can't blame him when he is playin on a team like the cavs)



You guys were also talkin about getting chandler and having

chandler
kt
spree
AH
anyone

Chandler is not a Center, even in the east. He is a 3/4 with an extremely limited offensensive game right now. I like his potential but the knicks are better off having othella at C than chandler right now.
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DefAndReb
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12/7/2002  8:51 AM
Wagner isn't Magic Johnson, and no, he's NOT better than Delk, nor is he better than Ward. You're acting like he's better based on his potential. Okay, smart guy, then why does Cleveland still stink? Why does Memphis stink so bad? Why does Chicago continue to blow chunks? I'm telling you, only number 1 or 2 picks in the draft are usually able to play as well as veteran players. And now that underclassmen and high-schoolers are getting picked based on POTENTIAL, the NBA has become the training ground that college is supposed to be. Magic, Bird, Duncan, they were ready to play because they were seasoned. Not all seniors are ready, look at KMart, it took him a season of being mediocre, and some underclassmen are really ready to go (Iverson), but RARELY.

Let's look at this year's crop:

Yao - definitely further along than anyone pegged him to be. He works damn hard. He can play now.

Jay Williams - struggling, but he plays the most difficult position on the floor, and he's had some big moments (got a triple double). He'll get there, but not this year. Steve Francis sucked his first year, too, so no shame in it.

Gooden - he's doing very well for a rookie, but he can't play D yet, and he's not rebounding well enough to compete. He'll be ready sooner than all of them except Yao.

Dunleavy - who? Right, he's having a very tough first year.

Tskitishvili - Not exactly making headlines.

Wagner - Can score. Can't defend. Once he learns how to play D and pass, he'll be a good SG. Houston is 10 times the player Wagner is right now. Wagner cannot run an offense. He'll be stellar in two years.

Hilario, Wilcox - ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz

Stoudemire - He's doing well, getting rebounds and minutes. He's not an all-star, but he's solid. PHX made a good pick. But, like almost all rookies, still getting the hang of defense. He'll be ready sooner than most.

Butler - getting lots of minutes in Miami, so he'll get better, but he's not exactly making anyone forget about Zo down there.

You know who the gem pick is this year? Second round pick Dan Gadzuric for Milwaukee. He's solid at center for a rookie, really a good deal.


Let's remember that a real team is greater than the sum of its parts. Bruggs' five would get get killed, like all young teams do. Sure, maybe in one-on-one street ball each of those guys on each of the Knicks would win a lot, but it's a TEAM sport.
BRIGGS
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12/7/2002  12:30 PM
There is the fallacy of your believe right there. Obviously we are not going to be able to put these guys together for a game but if you think Charlie Ward is better than Dujuan wagner it proves that you are just biased towards veteran players. Dujuan Wagner has more talent in his pinkie toe-at 19 years old-- he has played better games than Charlie has HIS entire career in his first 6. They're comparing him to AI not a back up PG.

the Knicks DESPERATELY need to integrate a couple of highly skilled 19-20 year olds into their lineup. I dont agree with stripping your team because you are not going to end up with the team I mentioned in my previous post. But the Knicks more than any other team in the league NEED two high picks and they need to execute on the picks and they should be very intrigued to take the best high school player ala all harrington and rashard lewis if they can get a low first rounder as well. Whether you or anyone else wants to think otherwise this team NEEDS an injection of high quality youth.
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OasisBU
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12/7/2002  1:14 PM
I agree, the Knicks do need to get younger. However getting 2 rookies from the draft isnt how to do it. Maybe if they had drafted Wilcox of Nene then take this years pick too - that would have been beneficial because 1 of the young players would have some NBA time when the new rookie comes in. Getting 2 from a single draft might turn us into a Cleveland or a Memphis. What the Knicks need to do is trade some of their talent for a young player 1-3 years in the league who has upside, and then take the pick this year and hopefully win Lebron or someone else good.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
BRIGGS
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12/7/2002  1:34 PM
I agree with you. If I can get a Pau gasol with the 5th pick in the draft-I have no problem believe me. But I have to think the stupidity of jeery krause trading elton brand would wake up most gms. I just want to go the the lottery once and execute[thats all you really need to do is to execute the right pick] they drafted Elton brand he was a 20-10 player and trade him. What do they think they were going to get a 30-20 player? there are none! If someone wants to give me elton brand for a high pick il take it. If those two euro rookies come in to the draft-the high picks are going to be extremely valuable-lets hope they win their case if they choose to challenge-in the ned i dont see where the nba could block employment of a player who will be 18 before the season starts. If you can play any other sport at 18 if you can go into the army at 18 and get kiled-certainly you should be able to play ball.
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DefAndReb
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12/8/2002  11:03 AM
The only way to compare two players is to compare them based on a NBA career, or at least a significant portion of one.

Wagner has proven nothing other than he likes to takes lots of shots, a la AI. High school, college, all of that is meaningless. The only thing that matters in the NBA is winning NBA games. Do I think Wagner will turn out to be a better player than Ward? Hell yeah! I'm not blind! Do I think Wagner is better right now? Hell no! He's only proven he can take lots of shots on a very, very bad team. It means nothing yet. Ward can run an offense. Granted, he can only seem to run a half-court offense, but he's a solid player and an all-around athlete. Talent, upside potential - all irrelevant. Results are what matter, the here and now.

Remember this, too. Young players do not make good teams. That group of five you paraded as better than the current Knicks team (and I'm not saying the Knicks are good, I'm well aware how bad they are), well, those guys would be the worst team in the league. Look at history, watch the young teams. They always lose a lot of games. Memphis, Chicago, LAC, Cleveland. Young teams, losing records. I'm not making this up, this is the way it works.

OasisBU is correct, getting ONE young player is a good thing. Betting your business, and this is a business remember, on raw young players who lose a lot of games is just throwing money away. Rebuilding from scratch is a bad thing to do for any team. The best team in the East right now, Indiana, resisted the urge to rebuild, instead integrating young guys (with experience, like O'Neal and B.Miller!) little by little. And, they got really lucky with Tinsley.

The best young players do better as part of a veteran team. It's not a bias towards veterans, it's based on watching young teams suck year after year in this league. Some guy I used to work with last season kept saying how great Kwame Brown would be, and I said "Yeah, in five years, maybe!" and he looked at me like I was insane. Well, Kwame's not there yet. He's starting to show some skills, but he's got a way to go.

Oh, and if Elton Brand was so great, why does LAC still suck? They got A. Miller, Olowokandi, Brand, and all these other young talented guys. They're at .400. Chicago is still bad, but they're better than they were when they had Elton. Maybe it's because Brand's time will come after Webber, Duncan, Garnett, and all the other veteran star players start to decline, in about five years.
OasisBU
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12/8/2002  11:19 AM
I agree with DefAndReb - young guys just make too many bad decisions on the court, vets have experience and can teach the younger players - that is invaluable experience. Look at Washington, they have a lot of Vets (too many sometimes) but their young core is going to be really great someday if they can hold on to them. NY should use this time to teach a few young players the ropes, not to build from the ground up. We have a few guys who can teach - and for the love of God put Ewing back in an NY uniform or bring him in as a coach. He belongs up here and should be teaching out future guys.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
BRIGGS
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12/8/2002  11:43 AM
I dont think you are getting it. We have a veteran team and we've played .250 ball in the last 95 games. We need an infusion of youth. You bring up the Wizards--Im sorry but there not very good either. You need a combination of youth and veterans. I agree with you if you say dont strip everything down and go with 8 20 year olds. But if you can add to polished college players who have dominated at that level and perhaps hedge late in the draft with a top high school kid you leve on the bench for future talent-like rashard lewis al harrington etc.. I dont know if you saw Mcdyess in college but Emeka Okafor is bigger has a better jumper is also extremely athletic and is attempting to become a Rhodes scholar besides his 22 pt 14 rebound 6 block average. Both Bosh and Emeka have franchise player written all over them and thats what we ultimately need. If we intergrate those talents into our lineup we will be much better off. I dont care what other clubs may or may not be doing-we are a bad club with older players who will continue to age. If we are not good now how will we improve next year? HOPING Mcdyess comes back to 100% form is at best a 50-50%--I think thats fair.
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DefAndReb
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12/8/2002  4:32 PM
When I say "veteran", I don't mean role-playing old guys. I mean it as in "opposite of 1st-3rd year players". You're right, the Knicks stink. We all know this. But the Mavericks are playing great and they're not playing rookies. Same with Indiana, Kings, Philly.

The problem with betting on a rookie (unless he's ready to contribute immediately, and most aren't) is this:

- They need minutes to get the hang of the NBA game, but unless your team is just plain terrible, like Memphis and Cleveland, they aren't going to get starting minutes, so it will take them a few seasons to get good.

- By the time they got the hang of it, they're either looking to get out to another team, or, in the case of Artest, they're already shipped out because management couldn't wait any longer. Then the guy turns around and burns you.

If we got the number 1 pick, then, hey, take James. Great. I don't think we'll get the number 1 pick, but I'll be happy if we do.

Otherwise, look for a young player who's about to break out. That's always the smartest thing to do. Who are the guys in their third and fourth years ready to step up and about to be free agents? Orlando didn't draft TMac, Toronto did. He wasn't so great then. So, Toronto puts him through training, but he takes a position at another firm, and he whoops their ass later. Same thing happens all the time, and I'll bet it happens to the Knicks if they try to get better in the draft.

Getting a better team through the draft only works for A) first or second pick (maybe 3rd in rare instances) OR B) a pretty good team that needs a solid low first rounder for the bench. The Knicks are not a good team so scrap B, so unless they get top 3 they should look for someone who can play NOW. He doesn't have to be in his thirties or some one-dimensional guy, but he has to be ready.

I would hate to see the Knicks become a training ground for players, only to see them become stars on other teams.
BRIGGS
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12/8/2002  7:05 PM
That is SO wrong. the NBA draft ALWAYS has a huge impact on NBA championships

where is Dallas without Nowitski? So he had to learn the game for a couple of years God what is he 22? along with kobe 23 tracy 23 you live in the past. These are franchise players my friend and there is NO way NO way that you are getting a franchise player unless you get them through free agency[which we cant because well never have the $$] or the draft. We got Mcdyess because he had major injury. I can go back into the draft and find plenty of franchise players drafted 4 and below. this team is going to need a little patience. we are so bad that its going to take time and execution on a couple of nice picks--this is a 25 win team my friend with NO young talent. Atleast back in the late 80s early 90s we were drafting and developing young talent. Remember the best knick teams the guys were all in their 20s and had played together for awhile. This team is awful-we have a bunch of 30 somethings half of which could be on the other side of their careers quick. There is no band aid here there is no quick fix-we have no cap room to get a significant free agent.
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BigSm00th
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12/8/2002  7:20 PM
I definitely agree with BRIGGS, there is NO way whatsoever the Bulls give up Chandler and Curry for anything less then a KG type player. The Bulls gave up Brand for Chandler and got Curry with the 4th pick, Krause would be slaughtered by Bulls fans if he gave up on them after 2 years. It usually takes HSers 3 full seasons before they make an impact, and for him to trade them would be absolute lunacy. The Knicks will get franchise players through the lottery and that's it, they have no cap room and no tradeable players.

What the Knicks should do is try to get some pretty decent young players with potential for their role players, guys like Kurt Thomas and Spree. I wouldn't be surprised if Orlando would give up Mike Miller for Kurt Thomas, and maybe the Kings would be willing to trade Gerald Wallace, but the Knicks guys like this, guys who could play the role Starks played for Ewing: not being the main guy, but being All-Stars who help them out. Then through the lotto the Knicks get guys to build around.

And don't give me this garbage that the Knicks shouldn't acquire a young player with tons of potential like Miller or Wallace because of Houston, Anderson, Spree, Nailon and Postell already being at the 2/3. That's garbage. This team is going nowhere and to pass up on getting players who will be All-Stars beacuse you have Shandon Anderson wrapped up is stupid.

If the Knicks grabbed a guy like Okafor or Bosh in the lotto, then Vujanic developed into a good NBA PG like myself and many others think (I think he'll be a lot like Steve Nash just looking at his numbers in Europe), get a solid swingman like a Miller or Wallace, then plug Okafor/Bosh downlow, you have something called a nucleus. Something the Knicks haven't had since Pat Ewing.
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DefAndReb
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12/9/2002  11:38 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

That is SO wrong. the NBA draft ALWAYS has a huge impact on NBA championships

The Knicks are NOT going to get the top pick. They're not going to get better than 6th pick probably. Given that, what would you do then? Build around a 6th pick? Imagine if LA built around Kobe. We've already seen what happens when he doesn't have Shaq around. Do you think Wilcox, Butler, or Nene are franchise players? Hardly. They'll be decent, but not franchise.

The NBA draft only has a huge impact when it's a top pick. Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Jordan, Zeke, Magic, Bird. And that's just 6 guys. How about these? Brand, Martin, Brown, Joe Smith, those guys, even at their top game, are not centerpiece type players. AI is a centerpiece, but he still needs another true All-Star around him before he'll get a ring.

We're NYC, we more money than anyone, we should be able to put together the best team money can buy. Steinbrenner knows this, that's why he owns winning teams.
falcindor
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12/9/2002  4:07 PM
A rookie need time to grow. We are trying to compete or a championship we dont have time to let a rookie screw up. There is no way we let a rookie start over Kurt, Antonio, Houston, or Sprewell. I we got Nene he would be on the bench too. Stupid ans think a rookie is gonna give u 20 and 10 which isnt going to happen. Outside the top 3 picks its hard to ind a player who is gonna instantly impact the game. None of the players available at #7 were better than what we currently had.
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Vmart
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12/9/2002  4:21 PM
Posted by falcindor:

A rookie need time to grow. We are trying to compete or a championship we dont have time to let a rookie screw up. There is no way we let a rookie start over Kurt, Antonio, Houston, or Sprewell. I we got Nene he would be on the bench too. Stupid ans think a rookie is gonna give u 20 and 10 which isnt going to happen. Outside the top 3 picks its hard to ind a player who is gonna instantly impact the game. None of the players available at #7 were better than what we currently had.

Your trying to say that Gooden, Stoudamire, Wagner and Hilario aren't as good as what the Knicks have. Hell I would take these guys over any PG, Center and PF the Knicks have any day of the week.
BRIGGS
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12/9/2002  4:47 PM
the team as assembled is a train wreck. i don't know where some of you come up with this stuff that we are vying for a championship. our *veterans* have compiled a 25-65 [with a bunch of overpaid 30 somethings] record since Van gundy left. Thats about the same level as teams that actually are rebuilding YET we have a 95MM dollar payroll. Forget this championship stuff. For example if we played the Nets 4 times we would get blown out 4 times. If you can say that about any club like I can say about Dallas Sacremento[when they are 100% healthy]etc.. then you are no where near the championship level. the Golden State warriors are 10 times closer to a championship than the Knicks. Always remember the Knicks were good when ewing Oakley Mason were 27-28 and had played together for a few years. We wont or cant develop masons or starks in their primes because scott layden cant do it. He is obssessed with stiff 7 footers. The *FACT* is whether you or anyone else wants to believe it or not is that this is aging poorly constructed club that is very small. and adding 7 footers that are stiffs like knight and doleac dont exactly flip the bill
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Vmart
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12/9/2002  5:04 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

the team as assembled is a train wreck. i don't know where some of you come up with this stuff that we are vying for a championship. our *veterans* have compiled a 25-65 [with a bunch of overpaid 30 somethings] record since Van gundy left. Thats about the same level as teams that actually are rebuilding YET we have a 95MM dollar payroll. Forget this championship stuff. For example if we played the Nets 4 times we would get blown out 4 times. If you can say that about any club like I can say about Dallas Sacremento[when they are 100% healthy]etc.. then you are no where near the championship level. the Golden State warriors are 10 times closer to a championship than the Knicks. Always remember the Knicks were good when ewing Oakley Mason were 27-28 and had played together for a few years. We wont or cant develop masons or starks in their primes because scott layden cant do it. He is obssessed with stiff 7 footers. The *FACT* is whether you or anyone else wants to believe it or not is that this is aging poorly constructed club that is very small. and adding 7 footers that are stiffs like knight and doleac dont exactly flip the bill

I totally agree with you. I think people are being misled by the Knicks they haven't admitted that they are rebuilding and we Know they are. Fans take what management is giving them and they still think the Knicks are competing for a championship. I just wish people stop think about the championship for a second and concentrate first on bringing in Championship level talent. The Knicks currently do not have a championship level team even with Dice in the lineup. Those championship dreams were dashed once Ewing and LJ left even with them they were competing for a championship never winning one.
killacross
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12/9/2002  5:22 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

That is SO wrong. the NBA draft ALWAYS has a huge impact on NBA championships

"there is NO way NO way that you are getting a franchise player unless you get them through free agency[which we cant because well never have the $$] or the draft."

Ah... let me see what teams built through trades???


Lakers- they got Kobe via trade
Dallas- Finley, Dirk, Nash, Lafraentz, NVE
Sacramento- C Webber and Bibby
Indiana- J O'neal and artest
Toronto- VC
Houston- Steve franchise
New Jersey- Kidd, richardson, deek
New Orleans- Mashburn
Atlanta- Big Dog, Shareef, Ratliff, Nazr
Miami- Zo, Brian grant, eddie jones
Phoenix- Marbury
Clippers- dre Miller, Brand
Portland- Wallace, wells, dale davis, stoud, derek anderson
bucks- allen, cassell, kukoc

when van gundy took NYK to the finals a few years ago.. we had spree, camby, and LJ who were aquired via trade


that's almost every team in the NBA, how can you say that teams don't aquire their franchise players through trade???

I know not all of the players i listed are franchise players, but many of them are top players on their team


[Edited by - killacross on 12/09/2002 17:24:35]
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BigSm00th
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12/9/2002  6:53 PM
Majority of those trades were made on Draft Day, so in essence they are draft picks raised by that team.
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