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martin
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11/3/2006  2:44 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by martin:
Posted by oohah:
Posted by martin:
Posted by oohah:

Here is the argument. His D is worse than Fryes. He is so focused on rebounding that he loses his man constantly.

And I like Lee.

oohah

? You watchin the same game as the rest of us?

Okay Martin, instead of asking that, why don't you tell how great Lee's defense was/is, last game or last season. Any evidence to back that up?

Did you notice that Warrick went off when Frye came out? Lee does not stay with his man.

I guess I am not watching the same game you are: Lee=Perfect, Frye=Awful.

oohah

hey, I don't claim that Lee's defense is perfect, and no need to put words in my mouth with the Lee=perfect, Frye=Awful.

Anyone can quote the log for just about any play and show that the player gets a rebound or block or steal at some point. I watch the game and see Frye not go for rebounds or box out or move his feet as much as Lee does and draw a conclusion.

And Martin, there is no need to suggest that I am not aware of what I am looking at, though I do understand you were joking. It just gets tiresome.

I did not just quote one play, I went through the whole log. It's pretty easy, all you have to do is search the name.

This Lee moves his feet stuff/Frye does not is just untrue. Bogus. There is no evidence, either statistical nor anecdotal to back that up. His D is just as bad as Frye's probably worse.

On the other hand Frye moved his feet real nice when he drew that Charge on Warrick.

Again, when Frye was out and Lee was in, the entire Memphis squad was going to the hole like they were driving down I95. Did you see that or did you not see it?

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 03-11-2006 2:39 PM]

how about this: I saw Lee get 13 rebounds and Frye get 4. And Lee did it at more critical times during the game.
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oohah
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11/3/2006  3:17 PM
how about this: I saw Lee get 13 rebounds and Frye get 4. And Lee did it at more critical times during the game.

I though we were talking about defense. I have never claimed Frye is a better rebounder, that would be absurd.
Here is the argument. His D is worse than Fryes. He is so focused on rebounding that he loses his man constantly.

And I like Lee.

oohah


? You watchin the same game as the rest of us?


oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
martin
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11/3/2006  3:19 PM
Posted by oohah:
how about this: I saw Lee get 13 rebounds and Frye get 4. And Lee did it at more critical times during the game.

I though we were talking about defense. I have never claimed Frye is a better rebounder, that would be absurd.
Here is the argument. His D is worse than Fryes. He is so focused on rebounding that he loses his man constantly.

And I like Lee.

oohah


? You watchin the same game as the rest of us?


oohah

agreed, but part of defense IS boxing out and getting rebounds.
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fishmike
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11/3/2006  3:31 PM
you cant conveniently separate rebounding and defense. The ability to clean the defensive glass is an equal or greater part of playing defense then blocking shots or contesting shots. Those two things mean nada if you dont control the defensive glass. This is why I balk when I hear people talking about how the Suns dont play defense. They clean the defensive glass. Thats what generates "quick" offense. No 2nd opportunities = good defense.

Rodman was never a great m2m defender. He didnt lock guys down. He contested shots yes, but his man to man defense was average. When you played against him though you got none, zilch, nada second chances as nobody in the NBA (Bill Russell?) cleaned the glass like he did.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
oohah
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11/3/2006  3:32 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by oohah:
how about this: I saw Lee get 13 rebounds and Frye get 4. And Lee did it at more critical times during the game.

I though we were talking about defense. I have never claimed Frye is a better rebounder, that would be absurd.
Here is the argument. His D is worse than Fryes. He is so focused on rebounding that he loses his man constantly.

And I like Lee.

oohah


? You watchin the same game as the rest of us?


oohah

agreed, but part of defense IS boxing out and getting rebounds.

You are absolutely right. But you have to play your man as well. Lee leaves his man all the time because he is concentrating solely on getting boards. He doesn't step up enough when the guards get beat because he is only concentrating on rebounds.

I don't want to make this Frye Vs. Lee. I love Lee's game. I just happen to think Frye is a better player. They both have their flaws. But I don't seee an equitable view these days. All I hear about is how Frye is bad at this or that and how Lee does everything Frye Doesn't. It isn't true. Frye is not a particularly good defensive player but I think he is better than Lee overall. He protects the rim better than Lee. Lee is no lockdown foot-mover perimeter defensive player.

Just do me a favor Martin: When you watch the game tonight, pretend this is the first time you watched Frye and Lee. I thjink you will see what I am saying. (Lee will probably have the defensive game of his life!)

I gotta stop BS'ing with you and do some work.

Laters,

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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11/3/2006  3:37 PM
you cant conveniently separate rebounding and defense. The ability to clean the defensive glass is an equal or greater part of playing defense then blocking shots or contesting shots. Those two things mean nada if you dont control the defensive glass. This is why I balk when I hear people talking about how the Suns dont play defense. They clean the defensive glass. Thats what generates "quick" offense. No 2nd opportunities = good defense.

You're practically quoting an argument I made to islesfan a few weeks ago. But you still have to guard your man and not just concentrate on rebounding.

Rodman was never a great m2m defender. He didnt lock guys down. He contested shots yes, but his man to man defense was average. When you played against him though you got none, zilch, nada second chances as nobody in the NBA (Bill Russell?) cleaned the glass like he did.

Just not true. Before Rodman was ever considered a great rebounder, he was considered just about the top defensive player in the game. He drew 2-3 charges on Jordan in one game when the badboys won. He ate Pippen alive on D. It was after Detroit won thier championships before he became the amazing rebounder.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/dennis_rodman/


And when Rodman did become a 17 RPG player, the one knock on him was that he stopped playing the insane Man-toman D because..guess what?..He only concentrated on rebounding.

Anyway, I thought what you posted above in this thread was how Lee moved his feet so well. Just not true.

Now I seriously gotta go.

oohah


Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
SlimPack
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11/3/2006  3:39 PM
lees d seemed to be better to me. but i didnt watch the game in its entirety.
fishmike
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11/3/2006  5:46 PM
And when Rodman did become a 17 RPG player, the one knock on him was that he stopped playing the insane Man-toman D because..guess what?..He only concentrated on rebounding.
thats baloney... he was a bench player that hustled. We wasnt a lock down guy. I followed that team closely.

Lee moves 1000 times better than Frye. Frye's a turnstyle for anyone with speed. Hell, considering how Webber went past him at will I guess you dont need to have that much speed after all. Frye is the reason you dont play centers at PF. Now playing next to Eddie he's reduced to a jumpershooting PFwho can defend his position. Great.. we got Raef Lafrenz only not white and without the shotblocking
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
oohah
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11/3/2006  5:57 PM
thats baloney... he was a bench player that hustled. We wasnt a lock down guy. I followed that team closely.

I guess you didn't follow that close, He was routinely put on Scottie Pippen and often put on Jordan when Dumars was not on him.

Not a lockdown player? Dennis Rodman, 89-90 defensive player of the year. http://www.nba.com/history/awards_defensiveplayer.html
Lee moves 1000 times better than Frye. Frye's a turnstyle for anyone with speed. Hell, considering how Webber went past him at will I guess you dont need to have that much speed after all. Frye is the reason you dont play centers at PF. Now playing next to Eddie he's reduced to a jumpershooting PFwho can defend his position. Great.. we got Raef Lafrenz only not white and without the shotblocking

You must not be following that closely. Try watching Lee for real tongiht, not just wanting him to be Dan Majerle.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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11/3/2006  6:02 PM
Rodman Not a lockdown defensive player in Detroit? Here's a little more for you:

# Named NBA Defensive Player of the Year in 1989-90 and 1990-91
# Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team seven times (1988-89 to 1992-93, 1994-95, 1995-96) and to the NBA All-Defensive Second Team in 1993-94

He was a lockdown defensive player before he was a maniac rebounder.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
fishmike
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11/3/2006  6:20 PM
Posted by oohah:
thats baloney... he was a bench player that hustled. We wasnt a lock down guy. I followed that team closely.

I guess you didn't follow that close, He was routinely put on Scottie Pippen and often put on Jordan when Dumars was not on him.

Not a lockdown player? Dennis Rodman, 89-90 defensive player of the year. http://www.nba.com/history/awards_defensiveplayer.html
Lee moves 1000 times better than Frye. Frye's a turnstyle for anyone with speed. Hell, considering how Webber went past him at will I guess you dont need to have that much speed after all. Frye is the reason you dont play centers at PF. Now playing next to Eddie he's reduced to a jumpershooting PFwho can defend his position. Great.. we got Raef Lafrenz only not white and without the shotblocking

You must not be following that closely. Try watching Lee for real tongiht, not just wanting him to be Dan Majerle.

oohah
oh I followed quite closely. I followed Frye's turnstyle defense which lead him to the bench. Lee did two things... stayed in front of his man and worked the glass.

I think you have some Frye colored glasses. I'm not making Lee out to be perfect. Just a better fit at PF (because as Frye constantly demonstrates he's a center)

I will give you Rodman, but I remember those guys getting the better of him than the other way around. Guys like Barkley and Malone also used to push him around, but I never said he wasnt a good defender, just not a great m2m defender. Regardless his rebounding was as big a part of why he was regarded as such as anything else.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
oohah
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11/4/2006  6:06 AM
oh I followed quite closely. I followed Frye's turnstyle defense which lead him to the bench. Lee did two things... stayed in front of his man and worked the glass.

Okay Fish, which man was he staying front of so well? Rudy Gay while he was scoring all over the place or Warrick while he was scoring all over the place?
I think you have some Frye colored glasses. I'm not making Lee out to be perfect. Just a better fit at PF (because as Frye constantly demonstrates he's a center)

Now you have turned the world upside down. You have been making Lee out to be a lot of what he's not, especially with this foot moving BS. Just be happy with his hustling, rebounding, and floor running for high-percentage shots. No need to turn him into Dan Majerle, he's pretty good just being the player he is.
I will give you Rodman, but I remember those guys getting the better of him than the other way around. Guys like Barkley and Malone also used to push him around, but I never said he wasnt a good defender, just not a great m2m defender. Regardless his rebounding was as big a part of why he was regarded as such as anything else.

You'll give me Rodman? Gee thanks! You're just wrong, he was one of the top 3-4 Man to Man defensive players before he became the best rebounder in the game. Oh, Malone and Barkley did well against him? How astounding! 2 of the greatest forwards of all time scored well against Rodman! Hey, Jordan and Drexler had some great games Vs. Dumars! I guess Dumars wasn't a great man to man defensive player either!

Sigh....

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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