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marbury/francis pairing may decide knicks season
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Bippity10
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10/27/2006  4:18 PM
Bottom line is the self proclaimed great Knicks fans put their hatred for LB above doing what's right for the Knicks. Play hard no matter what the circumstances.
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BasketballJones
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10/27/2006  4:19 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I figured it would be ignored. I made this point all last year and the "LB haters" ignored it because they hated LB. They called me an LB lover. But my point is pretty clear. Once you allow players to rebel for x reason you open the door to allowing them to rebel for this same reason somewhere down the line. I'm not saying the players will rebel if Isiah doesn't have a set rotation. But if they do, we already said it was okay last year to do this. So why not this year?

If the whole team packs it up and does quit it's okay I guess. They should be excused because the rotations aren't consistent and this is their right.


LB Lover.



[Edited by - basketballjones on 10-27-2006 16:20]
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Bippity10
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10/27/2006  4:25 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by Bippity10:

I figured it would be ignored. I made this point all last year and the "LB haters" ignored it because they hated LB. They called me an LB lover. But my point is pretty clear. Once you allow players to rebel for x reason you open the door to allowing them to rebel for this same reason somewhere down the line. I'm not saying the players will rebel if Isiah doesn't have a set rotation. But if they do, we already said it was okay last year to do this. So why not this year?

If the whole team packs it up and does quit it's okay I guess. They should be excused because the rotations aren't consistent and this is their right.


LB Lover.



[Edited by - basketballjones on 10-27-2006 16:20]

i wonder what you edited out. Could it have been an explitive?
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Allanfan20
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10/27/2006  4:36 PM
LB hor
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martin
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10/27/2006  4:45 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by Bippity10:

I figured it would be ignored. I made this point all last year and the "LB haters" ignored it because they hated LB. They called me an LB lover. But my point is pretty clear. Once you allow players to rebel for x reason you open the door to allowing them to rebel for this same reason somewhere down the line. I'm not saying the players will rebel if Isiah doesn't have a set rotation. But if they do, we already said it was okay last year to do this. So why not this year?

If the whole team packs it up and does quit it's okay I guess. They should be excused because the rotations aren't consistent and this is their right.


LB Lover.



[Edited by - basketballjones on 10-27-2006 16:20]

i wonder what you edited out. Could it have been an explitive?

he spelled LB wrong.
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nixluva
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10/27/2006  4:48 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Bippity10:

"Thomas reiterated Thursday that his lineup and rotation would change throughout the Knicks’ first 15 to 20 games."

Does this mean that the team has the right to quit on Isiah and not play hard until after the first 15 to 20 games?

Funny how no one has responded to this Bip. I mean Isiah Thomas will have to be called senile if he does this right?

Isiah is patterning his winning coaching style after LB tried and true success.

Isiah isn't really doing anything that can compare with the hack job that LB, did. With the team having pretty much the same players there's going to be some similarity in what they see as problems, but it's in HOW they handle those issues that the difference comes out. LB pretty much ran from the problem. When Isiah says he's going to make some lineup changes, he's not talking about the wild and senseless kind that LB did. He's speaking of smaller changes. We pretty much know what we have and players know what their roles are. Unlike during LB's time here. I can guarantee you that we won't approach 40+ different lineups. None of us had any problem with some changes, but LB took a 20 game period and made it the entire season.
martin
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10/27/2006  4:55 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by martin:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Bippity10:

"Thomas reiterated Thursday that his lineup and rotation would change throughout the Knicks’ first 15 to 20 games."

Does this mean that the team has the right to quit on Isiah and not play hard until after the first 15 to 20 games?

Funny how no one has responded to this Bip. I mean Isiah Thomas will have to be called senile if he does this right?

Isiah is patterning his winning coaching style after LB tried and true success.

Isiah isn't really doing anything that can compare with the hack job that LB, did. With the team having pretty much the same players there's going to be some similarity in what they see as problems, but it's in HOW they handle those issues that the difference comes out. LB pretty much ran from the problem. When Isiah says he's going to make some lineup changes, he's not talking about the wild and senseless kind that LB did. He's speaking of smaller changes. We pretty much know what we have and players know what their roles are. Unlike during LB's time here. I can guarantee you that we won't approach 40+ different lineups. None of us had any problem with some changes, but LB took a 20 game period and made it the entire season.

So far Isiah has said that the Knicks will:

1) lose early and often
2) used the media to call Curry a pssy
3) said he was going to use many lineups to start the first month

how is that different?

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Bippity10
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10/27/2006  5:03 PM
I agree with you, but could it have become an entire season for a reason??? Again, put your hatred for LB aside and be honest with that answer. In my view LB wanted to see if guys would step up and win positions. Like Isiah he couldn't differentiate between players at each position and wanted to see if guys would seperate themselves. He did not communicate well with the players and they started to quit. The Pistons were winning and saying how great the freedom was and they quit some more. Zeke did not 100% back his coach and they quit some more. LB went to the press and they quit some more. LB wanted to seperate the guys that wanted to play for him and who didn't by using the same games he had used for decades and they quit some more.

Now the reality is Isiah has to tread on a bed of nails and coddle these guys perfectly in order to make sure they don't quit. If Isiah is fired the next coach will have to do the same. Why? because last year we made it okay to quit. Instead of sending that message we should have told the players "we hear your complaints and they will be addressed in time. In the meantime you need to play your assesss off. We did not do this. Instead we said it was okay to quit. And this is why our team is psycologically scarred to this day. How do you win a title with a team this fragile.

Isiah clearly said "Thomas reiterated Thursday that his lineup and rotation would change throughout the Knicks’ first 15 to 20 games." None of us know what that means, although you appear to think you do. It could mean a decision after one game. It could mean 30 games of who do I play. We don't know. But once again the "LB haters" keep missing the point. It's not about LB. It's about not allowing your team to quit no matter what the reason. And if Isiah handles this perfectly or messes it up you must play hard. Why, if you are such a fan, would you settle for less. Why do we need perfect conditions to see our team play hard?

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-27-2006 5:07 PM]
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Bippity10
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10/27/2006  5:06 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by martin:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Bippity10:

"Thomas reiterated Thursday that his lineup and rotation would change throughout the Knicks’ first 15 to 20 games."

Does this mean that the team has the right to quit on Isiah and not play hard until after the first 15 to 20 games?

Funny how no one has responded to this Bip. I mean Isiah Thomas will have to be called senile if he does this right?

Isiah is patterning his winning coaching style after LB tried and true success.

Isiah isn't really doing anything that can compare with the hack job that LB, did. With the team having pretty much the same players there's going to be some similarity in what they see as problems, but it's in HOW they handle those issues that the difference comes out. LB pretty much ran from the problem. When Isiah says he's going to make some lineup changes, he's not talking about the wild and senseless kind that LB did. He's speaking of smaller changes. We pretty much know what we have and players know what their roles are. Unlike during LB's time here. I can guarantee you that we won't approach 40+ different lineups. None of us had any problem with some changes, but LB took a 20 game period and made it the entire season.

So far Isiah has said that the Knicks will:

1) lose early and often
2) used the media to call Curry a pssy
3) said he was going to use many lineups to start the first month

how is that different?

Isiah is seeing the same problems LB saw and he is reacting to it accordingly. The difference is that fans got worked into a lather over LB. They saw Phoenix east. When it didn't happen they began to hate him. Everything else was out the window at that point. Expectations are lowered for Isiah. Players like him. So Zeke can do exaclty what LB does, he can even draft the players LB liked and target the defensive players he called for. But because he sells it and handles it in a way that the fans find pleasing and not dentrimental to their stars. It is okay.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-27-2006 5:08 PM]

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-27-2006 5:09 PM]
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LBeast
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10/27/2006  6:18 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

"Thomas reiterated Thursday that his lineup and rotation would change throughout the Knicks’ first 15 to 20 games."

Does this mean that the team has the right to quit on Isiah and not play hard until after the first 15 to 20 games?

Only if he does it for ALL 82 GAMES. And he has to make sure that a guy that's playing well one night gets benched the next night. And when he finds a starting five with some cohesiveness, and they win 5 or 6 in a row, he HAS to breakup that lineup. He has to berate his young players because we know young players cant play. He has to bitch about everything under the sun. Pine for the opposing teams players everynight. Trade for then immediately sour on a couple of players......THEN and only then will he have the Magoo..er...Larry Brown way down pat.

Funny how no one has responded to this Bip. I mean Isiah Thomas will have to be called senile if he does this right?
[/quote]



[Edited by - LBeast on 10-27-2006 6:20 PM]
newyorknewyork
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10/27/2006  7:27 PM
Isiah has been very open to the players about every single decision he has been making. That goes a long way. The players believe that Isiah is on there side. While I don't believe that the players last season believed Brown was on there side. They felt Brown was sabotaging the team in order to get rid of them. Now if that was Browns intentions or not is debatable. But thats what HE lead his players to believe.

Also if Brown puts out an experimental lineup which is overmatched, and they get blown out because they are overmatched. Fans are accusing the team of not trying hard. I will admit that later on in the season the team did quit. But for most of the season being overmatched was the case. Example: Eddie Curry, Antonio Davis, Malik Rose, Q1, & Marbury is the starting lineup. Malik Rose can't guard ANY skilled SF in the league. Q was going through some personal problems, but even without that his jumper was just off all season. Davis was decent but way past his prime to be in a starting lineup. While Eddie Curry missed most of the offseason because of heart trouble, battle injuries early, and wasn't in the greatest shape. But thats the starting lineup that Brown wanted to use. All you would have to do is run zone to shut it down defensivley, since nobody in that lineup could shoot the ball consistantly. And run it off the court offensively. Speed at PG & SF kills that lineup offensively. Not to mention nobody in that lineup that could guard any of the qality PFs in the league. Don't tell me AD. And guess what. Thats just what teams did. They ran that old slow starting lineup right off the court, and we couldn't keep up. And they forced them to shoot jumpers which we could't do consistantly. The faster quicker 2nd unit were now in a position of weakness. Since they had to play catchup, and hit all the clutch shots, and make all the key stops. A lineup featuring basically 3-4 rookies in Frye, Robinson, Butler, and sometimes Lee since he rarley played. Along with Crawford & Woods and sometimes Taylor. And then after halftime, the first unit comes back.

And im not even going to get into the stratergy of running the offense through the black whole, T.O prone, offensive foul prone, Eddie Curry last season. Instead of using the best players on the teams best talents in order to get Curry, Frye, Lee, Butler the easier buckets.

I ask where is the line between the team being overmatched because Larry Brown for whatever reason put them in a position of weakness where they are vulnerable to get embarrassed? And the line between the players just not trying hard enough? If Marbury & Malik Rose get burned by faster pgs & Sfs does that mean they aren't trying hard. Or that they don't have the latteral quickness to keep up with any?? And if because they are getting burned the other players try to help out and now there men are getting easier baskets. Does that mean they aren't trying hard or playing with effort?? If We have Q at sf on Odom and Marbury & Crawford on Kobe and he goes off for 50pts. Is that because Marbury & Crawford didn't try hard? Or because neither of them could match is size and athletism or skill?

If Brown wanted to experiement with a very very very flawed starting lineup. Then cool. But how can we really accuse the players of not playing hard when they get embarrassed because of it. Its like saying I want you to swim accross the whole atlantic ocean in 2mins. Now by the time 2mins is up you didn't even reach halfway. And me accusing you of not trying hard enough because you didn't atleast reach half way.

You know what. Isiah & Dolan asked Larry Brown to coach the team and put out a winning team. Larry Brown was put in a position of weakness with a talented but flawed roster. And basically did a tank job because of it. He didn't put out the best lineups, he didn't make the best in game coaching decisions, He didn't have the best stragtergy to maximize our players talents and failed. That means he quit on us right? Because instead of accepting what he had and making the best of it until he was in a position of strength. He decided to prove to the Isiah and Dolan how flawed it was and tank the season.

If Larry Brown wanted players to earn PT thats fine as well. But can you honestly tell me that Taylor & Rose earned the 18 & 15.5mins while Lee earned 16.8mins per game last season? That 8 & 5.5mins that could have went to Lee & Frye & Butler. For mins for Frye to average 28mins, 5mins to get Lee 21-22mins per game. And the rest of the time to Butler. Or even give Lee 8mins to get 24mins and 5.5 to Butler to get him 19mins.
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rvhoss
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10/28/2006  9:59 AM
thanks.
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bigbeast
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10/28/2006  10:14 AM
Funny how Bip has no response to Lbeast or New York New York. You guys took the words right of my keyboard.
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rvhoss
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10/28/2006  10:16 AM
bip will respond saying he always agreed with them and you didn't read his post.

BTW...I think Cato is butler with nba experience and a little bit more fire. Oh, he's better too.

Cato could make JJ1 obsolete...I mean, buyout/trade fodder obsolete.
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bigbeast
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10/28/2006  10:22 AM
Posted by rvhoss:

bip will respond saying he always agreed with them and you didn't read his post.

BTW...I think Cato is butler with nba experience and a little bit more fire. Oh, he's better too.

Cato could make JJ1 obsolete...I mean, buyout/trade fodder obsolete.


Don't know if I agree with you about Cato/James. I mean its not a big deal, they are both only journeymen, but James (when healthy) is a better shotblocker.
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rvhoss
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10/28/2006  10:27 AM
don't let fish see you type that. That's his favorite come back line to me.

I believe in JJ1, but that injury was basically invented by a knick...it's early and I don't recall his name, but he came with LJ. What's his name?

Hopefully he comes back fully from it...I liked JJ1's game. He is the shot blocking enforcer everyone is clamouring for and costs $5 mill a year.
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10/28/2006  11:46 AM
Bip - I don't buy the whole "we were fine with the players quiting, so they now will think it's okay to do it again" argument. The players quit on LB because it was clear to them that LB had quit on them months ago. These players have been playing for coaches since they were probably 12-13 years old. They know what a coach is supposed to do and what he is not supposed to do. They also know when someone is tanking games. LB was clearly doing everything in his power to get half the roster traded or waived. He made it absolutely clear to the team that he had no confidence in them and was going to embarass them in front of the entire league by setting unworkable and generally f**ked up rotations and substitution patterns. I think most people under those circumstances would just go through the motions until the season was over. I don't think that means that the players have all of a sudden determined that it is okay to quit on your coach if you don't like what is going on. These guys are not going to quit on Isiah because they know Isiah believes in them, wants them to succeed, and will fight for them. They might not like everything IT does and some players might not be happy with their playing time, but they know IT is going to act like a coach and try to win games and make the team better, which is something LB was not trying to do last year.
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rvhoss
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10/29/2006  8:04 AM
just the way zeke is handling the refs and press is indicative that he is doing everything he can to win games and help his players. LB didn't argue 1 call...and he's the king of the arguing calls.

just one strange blackhole season.

06/07...all redemption.

even uk is coming back around...it's like 2004 all over again. ;)

well, sort of...
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marbury/francis pairing may decide knicks season
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