If I'm interpreting most peoples complaints correctly most people are saying that LB should have been on at least a 35-38 win pace and he didn't have JJ2. So shouldn't Isiah be expected to do the same without JJ2?

I think that's what they are saying. It makes sense to me. I personally don't care about the record. If we lose tough hard fought games with the team busting asse than that is something to build on. If we are playing .500 ball and your team is giving up and quitting in half of it's losses than why are you building on that? These are the questions I will want answered. I just want my team to play hard every night because I know that's the only way to win. Unfortunately they are not being taken to task when they don't. That's why they quit all last year. So far this year it's happened once in the pre-season. That in itself is not the end of the world. But the fact that we don't seem to want to address it is very concerning to me.

Man, the way some people are predicting gloom and doom based on one preseason game is amazing. It was one game!! The team won three games in a row and came up against a highly motivated Boston team with IT playing the scrubs in the 1st quarter. I agree that the team should have showed more effort, but the way you guys are sounding is overkill. EVERY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE HAS GAMES WHERE THE PLAYERS JUST DON'T GET INTO THE GAME AND SEEM OUT OF SYNCH OR UNMOTIVATED. This should be a rare occurrence and on a good team it probably only happens once or twice a year, but it happens. But based on one preseason game, you have now reached the conclusion that LB was right and we should now lose to win. Why can't we win to win and get the trade value of some of our guys up (i.e. Francis) and trade them for a couple of more players that might fit better. I think the team is really only 1 or 2 more players away from having a good balance on offense and defense. Let's see how the regular season plays out before we start calling for a rebuild.

Posted by TheGame:

Man, the way some people are predicting gloom and doom based on one preseason game is amazing. It was one game!! The team won three games in a row and came up against a highly motivated Boston team with IT playing the scrubs in the 1st quarter. I agree that the team should have showed more effort, but the way you guys are sounding is overkill. EVERY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE HAS GAMES WHERE THE PLAYERS JUST DON'T GET INTO THE GAME AND SEEM OUT OF SYNCH OR UNMOTIVATED. This should be a rare occurrence and on a good team it probably only happens once or twice a year, but it happens. But based on one preseason game, you have now reached the conclusion that LB was right and we should now lose to win. Why can't we win to win and get the trade value of some of our guys up (i.e. Francis) and trade them for a couple of more players that might fit better. I think the team is really only 1 or 2 more players away from having a good balance on offense and defense. Let's see how the regular season plays out before we start calling for a rebuild.

I agree with you and when it becomes a rare occurrence with this bunch it won't be a big deal. But in the meantime, since we did it all last year and here it comes creeping up once again, can you not understand the concern of the fans. At some point fans will become sick of performances like this. I am a coach. I have no problems with losses when my team is busting their tail. But there is no excuse for quitting in a game. And the fact that we are allowing our team to use a five minute stretch when the scrubs came in as an excuse for getting blown out by 30 is a huge part of the problem. Is it too much to ask for the team to at least play even after that? Make a run at some point? Concentrate and stop turning it over? Give an effort instead of wasting another game of learning who we are? The loss isn't a concern in pre-season. The way we lost, is. The players need to wipe that quitting crap out of their systems.

Posted by Bippity10:

Who is a true fan?

Someone who is content when his team fails and watches without question, never angry with his teams failures and satisfied when his team reaches .500. Someone that accepts a lack of effort and makes excuses for it?

Or someone who is made more and more miserable with each losing season. Who can't handle a lack of effort and calls for the players on his team to respect his city, the fans and the team name instead of dragging it through the mud? I'm not answering the question. I'm just asking

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-24-2006 2:35 PM]

Bippity, this is quite an oversimplifcation of perspectives and, what seems to me, to be an obvious way of arranging the argument in a manner that leans towards one's own point of view, while attempting to appear "objective." This is something I have noticed several of the self proclaimed "realists" on this forum doing, including many of my favorite posters.

I'm sorry I'm not buying it. Nor am I -- like I suspect others here such as tomverve -- buying into some
sort of blind alliegence to Zeke and the Knicks roster. Sure there are some who could be seen as supportive of Zeke no matter what, as can there be those who have increasingly come across to me as 100% hopeful that the team fails, and will stop at nothing to prove themselves right.

Not everyone who wants to see what happens this year is content with the team "failing," or never gets "angry" about things the way they are, or "accepts a lack of effort." There are all kinds of methods for creating a good team, many of which have come to the shock of the public. Ask Mets and Tiger fans fans in baseball or Clipper fans. This is not to say that this is LIKELY to happen with the Knicks at all, but to say that things can turn around faster thn one thinks, but sometimes it takes time and development too. A .500 record is not something to be content with but possibly a stepping stone towards success. Sure, it could also mean a place in mediocrity for another 5 years, but so could blowing it up as well. The Bulls, for all of their championing by some Knick fans, went through multiple "rebuilds" over more than a few YEARS after Jordan before they got things going.

One of my things is all of this rhetoric about respect for the city, and fans etc. is chest thumping b.s. It's a game that people get paid to play to entertain, not a war for a country's existence. Maybe fans also need to accept the reality that this is a game about money, like most jobs in life. Does that mean that it is right? Not necessarily, but maybe the expectation level, especially for New York fans who seem to believe that we deserve success at every waking moment because our teams spend so much, amongst other reasons, are too high. Where is the enjoyment of watching a team develop into something?

To me, the A-Rod situation exemplifies all that's wrong with some New York fans, and frankly embarasses me as a life long NYer. The low blows at him Marbury, Francis, Beltran. etc. seem to really lack perspective. Anyway, I'm no big supporter of the current Knicks regieme, but I'd like to see how they do this season, and do well. If the team stinks, then Isiah goes, and we start all over again. If not then maybe that means we are moving in the right direction, and maybe not. The maybe not, clearly bothers many who want to avoid that, but I think the reality is that that's just part of being a fan.

[Edited by - PresIke on 10-24-2006 7:40 PM]

Isiah has to prove people wrong.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 10-24-2006 11:44 AM]

I need to read his latest book:

How To Steal $50,000,000.... The Right Way.

That said, I weep not for Larry Brown. I was 100% against him coaching my Knickerbocker and it sickens me to realize how right I was. I guess one con man deserves another, right, Isiah? The players did quit on Brown but let's not forget that Brown quit on them too.

That said, time to move on. I'm tired of seeing, hearing and reading about the Old Weasel.

zeke should've kept chaney, the losing would've been less costlier.

one thing can be said, larry put zeke in the best position to win