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BigC
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10/15/2006  2:57 PM
When we see them in real action against a complete team then I will be impressed. Because players have to sacrifice their games in the real season not just preseason when the stat chart does not count.

Cutting to the hole will be something I am waiting to see.

[Edited by - BigC on 10-15-2006 2:59 PM]
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joec32033
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10/15/2006  3:09 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:

I am also not a basketball genius, but I play one on TV.

Did you sleep at a Holiday in last night also?
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BlueSeats
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10/15/2006  4:27 PM
Posted by Caseloads:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by rvhoss:

brown never played marbury off the ball, his idea of marginalizing is benching and dnp.

Yeah but what difference does the position make? Marbury wanted to move off the ball because getting assists was "too hard" and he wanted to shoot whenever he wants without having to think about it. THAT is not being marginalized. That's a need to be a bigger Starbury from a different position.
It's time to move on from the "LB did that too" mantras.

they are weak and falling on deaf ears.

Hey, I'm willing to see who can go longer without bringing him up. It'll be like the anti-masturbation contest on Seinfeld. You'll be like Elaine and we'll all think you'll be able to cruise for months, but then you'll see Ariza have a 12/7 outing and you'll lose it, like she did over John-John.
but I like that you attribute isiah's coaching ability to being "more likeable".

is that like saying he speaks well?


He pretends to be their friends. Ever know a white guy who act totally different when he's around blacks so they'll like him? That's how Isiah is wherever he goes. He changes personalities faster than Starbust changes his cheap sneaks.

[Edited by - blueseats on 10-15-2006 10:33 AM]
Look, last year, no one on the knicks could score for jack, and Marbs could. So if you have a talent that can help the team and is not being utilized, why not ask to be put in the position to score more?


Why do you say no one else could score? It wasn't about scoring, it was about freedom.

And our defense was more problematic than our offense.

BlueSeats
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10/15/2006  4:34 PM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by BlueSeats:

Ironically, this is not so far from what Brown was trying to do with a quickly initiated offense with the PG being but one distributor, without a reliance on the pick and roll and penetrate and dish, and with movement off the ball. Isiah is obviously more likable, but what he's asking of his guys probably isn't all that fundamentally different than Brown.

This is perhaps true in a broad sense, but the devil seems to be in the details. If there were not significant differences between Isiah's and Larry's offensive systems, I don't think we'd be hearing as many "night and day" quotes as we already have. In an analogy, maybe they're both socialist systems, but Larry was a dictator and it seems Isiah is running more of a democracy.


Maybe, we just don't know from where we stand, so I shorthanded it into Isiah (and/or his approach) being more likable.

But we all know, and it's all too redundant by now, that in the past Brown was initially perceived as unlikable, but the players did their jobs regardless and learned to love his teachings after they "got it." Our guys never got it. Hopefully now they will. And, hopefully, if Isiah departs they'll get it from the next guy. It's my continued hope they will evolve or get sent elsewhere.

wsdm
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10/15/2006  6:03 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by BlueSeats:

Ironically, this is not so far from what Brown was trying to do with a quickly initiated offense with the PG being but one distributor, without a reliance on the pick and roll and penetrate and dish, and with movement off the ball. Isiah is obviously more likable, but what he's asking of his guys probably isn't all that fundamentally different than Brown.

This is perhaps true in a broad sense, but the devil seems to be in the details. If there were not significant differences between Isiah's and Larry's offensive systems, I don't think we'd be hearing as many "night and day" quotes as we already have. In an analogy, maybe they're both socialist systems, but Larry was a dictator and it seems Isiah is running more of a democracy.


Maybe, we just don't know from where we stand, so I shorthanded it into Isiah (and/or his approach) being more likable.

But we all know, and it's all too redundant by now, that in the past Brown was initially perceived as unlikable, but the players did their jobs regardless and learned to love his teachings after they "got it." Our guys never got it. Hopefully now they will. And, hopefully, if Isiah departs they'll get it from the next guy. It's my continued hope they will evolve or get sent elsewhere.
So it's like two professors who are both geniuses: One can't teach his students and goes through complicated stuff no one understands (Brown), whereas the other knows how to connect with the students on their level (Isiah). I'm glad the students are taking classes with the latter now.
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TrueBlue
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10/15/2006  6:13 PM
No Kidd, Carter, Webber, Dalembert and all these fans are giddy over the sample-sized results.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
newyorknewyork
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10/15/2006  6:36 PM
Posted by SeatsBlue:

No Kidd, Carter, Webber, Dalembert and all these fans are giddy over the sample-sized results.

And its up to you to save the day and bring them back to earth right. Good job.
https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
nyk4ever
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10/15/2006  6:44 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by SeatsBlue:

No Kidd, Carter, Webber, Dalembert and all these fans are giddy over the sample-sized results.

And its up to you to save the day and bring them back to earth right. Good job.

And it's up to you to tell SeatsBlue not to say such things?
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
BlueSeats
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10/15/2006  6:55 PM
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by BlueSeats:

Ironically, this is not so far from what Brown was trying to do with a quickly initiated offense with the PG being but one distributor, without a reliance on the pick and roll and penetrate and dish, and with movement off the ball. Isiah is obviously more likable, but what he's asking of his guys probably isn't all that fundamentally different than Brown.

This is perhaps true in a broad sense, but the devil seems to be in the details. If there were not significant differences between Isiah's and Larry's offensive systems, I don't think we'd be hearing as many "night and day" quotes as we already have. In an analogy, maybe they're both socialist systems, but Larry was a dictator and it seems Isiah is running more of a democracy.


Maybe, we just don't know from where we stand, so I shorthanded it into Isiah (and/or his approach) being more likable.

But we all know, and it's all too redundant by now, that in the past Brown was initially perceived as unlikable, but the players did their jobs regardless and learned to love his teachings after they "got it." Our guys never got it. Hopefully now they will. And, hopefully, if Isiah departs they'll get it from the next guy. It's my continued hope they will evolve or get sent elsewhere.
So it's like two professors who are both geniuses: One can't teach his students and goes through complicated stuff no one understands (Brown), whereas the other knows how to connect with the students on their level (Isiah). I'm glad the students are taking classes with the latter now.


And where do all the other coaches of the likes of Marbury, Francis, Curry, Jalen, et al, fit in?

EnySpree
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10/15/2006  7:05 PM
It take a sports writter to say it in order for a good conversation to happen on this board?

I started a thread on the knicks not needing a point guard before this guy.

I'm convinced a lot of you have no clue about the game of basketball unless someone writes something that you can post a link about.
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BlueSeats
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10/15/2006  7:11 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

It take a sports writter to say it in order for a good conversation to happen on this board?

I started a thread on the knicks not needing a point guard before this guy.

I'm convinced a lot of you have no clue about the game of basketball unless someone writes something that you can post a link about.


And some of us were talking about such things last year and the year before. I mean that's the conclusion most teams come to with Marbury and Francis as PG. Either that or they conclude they need a different kind of PG.

But kudos to you for being one whole preseason game ahead of the rest of 'em.

[Edited by - blueseats on 10-15-2006 7:14 PM]
newyorknewyork
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10/15/2006  7:14 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by SeatsBlue:

No Kidd, Carter, Webber, Dalembert and all these fans are giddy over the sample-sized results.

And its up to you to save the day and bring them back to earth right. Good job.

And it's up to you to tell SeatsBlue not to say such things?

I didn't tell him not to say such things. I congradulated him on a good job of bringing those guys who are getting giddy over 2 meaningless preseason games back to earth.

But if you want to keep playing the game

And its up to you to comment me on telling Seatsblue not to say such things right. Great job
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nyk4ever
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10/15/2006  7:19 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by SeatsBlue:

No Kidd, Carter, Webber, Dalembert and all these fans are giddy over the sample-sized results.

And its up to you to save the day and bring them back to earth right. Good job.

And it's up to you to tell SeatsBlue not to say such things?

I didn't tell him not to say such things. I congradulated him on a good job of bringing those guys who are getting giddy over 2 meaningless preseason games back to earth.

But if you want to keep playing the game

And its up to you to comment me on telling Seatsblue not to say such things right. Great job

Woah, guess I somehow hit a nerve with that comment? I was only commenting on what you said because someone could have easily said the same thing to you about making snide comments directed at Seats. Didn't realize it was that time of the month, sorry.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
nixluva
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10/15/2006  7:50 PM
LB's system is NOTHING like Isiah's. Now almost all BB schemes attempt to do the same thing, which is make it easy to score, so there are going to be similarities. However in LB's system YOU MUST have a good ball distributing PG. The role of Billups at the top of the key is vital to how that entire scheme works. He's the brain of the offense. Everything runs thru him.

By contrast Isiah's system doesn't require the PG to make the decision on passing alone. Almost everyone shares in that role. The motion creates the passing lanes and it becomes easier for players to make the decision of whether to pass the ball or not. It's this simplified decision making that allows this team to function well even without a great PG at the head of the offense. We have several players who can push the ball up court and once there the motion sets up easy passes and they take it from there. Also the offense is highly focused on attacking the basket. That is different from LB's offense in which a guy like Billups spends so much time far away from the basket as well as other players who are taking midrange jumpers more often than drives to the basket.

In any event as some of us have been trying to say for a while now, this team is well suited to Isiah's system and I think we'll be reasonably successful as long as the team can manage to play defense on a respectable level. They don't have to be great, but they can't just let teams score at will. So there's still work to do and the offense is still growing as well. This is just the beginning of the process of making this team into a competitive team with a REAL IDENTITY.
TrueBlue
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10/15/2006  7:55 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by SeatsBlue:

No Kidd, Carter, Webber, Dalembert and all these fans are giddy over the sample-sized results.

And its up to you to save the day and bring them back to earth right. Good job.

And it's up to you to tell SeatsBlue not to say such things?

I didn't tell him not to say such things. I congradulated him on a good job of bringing those guys who are getting giddy over 2 meaningless preseason games back to earth.

But if you want to keep playing the game

And its up to you to comment me on telling Seatsblue not to say such things right. Great job

Woah, guess I somehow hit a nerve with that comment? I was only commenting on what you said because someone could have easily said the same thing to you about making snide comments directed at Seats. Didn't realize it was that time of the month, sorry.



Sanity is needed because if the playoffs started today in the EC Miami, Clev, Nets, Wash, Pacers would not be in. Dallas is 0-3 so far, Miami is 0-2, Spurs 0-1, Toronto 3-0, Orlando 3-0. These games mean absolutely squat when teams aren't trying to win now. There have been some good things such as the players committing to the motion offense but let's not condone the fact they are shooting 16% from 3pt and 43% fg against weak 2nd and 3rd/NBDL string defenses.


[Edited by - SeatsBlue on 10-15-2006 6:56 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
BlueSeats
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10/15/2006  8:42 PM
Posted by nixluva:

LB's system is NOTHING like Isiah's. Now almost all BB schemes attempt to do the same thing, which is make it easy to score, so there are going to be similarities. However in LB's system YOU MUST have a good ball distributing PG. The role of Billups at the top of the key is vital to how that entire scheme works. He's the brain of the offense. Everything runs thru him.

By contrast Isiah's system doesn't require the PG to make the decision on passing alone. Almost everyone shares in that role. The motion creates the passing lanes and it becomes easier for players to make the decision of whether to pass the ball or not. It's this simplified decision making that allows this team to function well even without a great PG at the head of the offense. We have several players who can push the ball up court and once there the motion sets up easy passes and they take it from there. Also the offense is highly focused on attacking the basket. That is different from LB's offense in which a guy like Billups spends so much time far away from the basket as well as other players who are taking midrange jumpers more often than drives to the basket.

Well we're talking about degrees of difference. I think you exaggerate the differences, especially now before we even see isiah's offense fully implemented. He says he's using the same system he used in Indy, where he utilized Tinsley as a fairly pure playmaker. But then he didn't have quite as many PGs to placate as here, so maybe he'll adjust.

Brown too was not opposed to letting Prince or Hamilton initiate breaks and, in fact, in 04-05 Hamilton only registered 1 less APG than Billips. And one did not see Billips pick-N-rolling and penetrating and dishing all game long, he was largely a steady initiator and facilitator from the perimeter. He'd pass to the interior and they'd pass back out, and around the horn. He was a man who manned a point on the floor, and he was their "head" out there, but they were not dependent on his skillset. When he sat his replacements were quite clear on how to similarly man the position: defend, see the floor from the arc, keep the ball moving, find the open man. It didn't take unique skills.


And this so far for us has been little more than meaningless pre-season, but I'd bet that as the games start to count, and a "most reliable" decision maker emerges, we too will see the ball in his hands more and more. Right now we're still in "lets see what you can do and lets have fun doing it" mode. When the system is implemented and the games start to count lets assess the system.
crzymdups
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10/15/2006  8:54 PM
the bottom line is Larry is a traditionally horrible offensive coach. he's a defense first guy and has never coached good offensive teams. that's one of the reasons I thought he would be such a horrible fit here.
¿ △ ?
BigC
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10/15/2006  8:57 PM
I think we seriously need to atleast wait until December before we start doing back flips about us beating a Nets team with no VC, and Kid. And then playing a Philly team with no front court players.
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crzymdups
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10/15/2006  8:59 PM
Posted by BigC:

I think we seriously need to atleast wait until December before we start doing back flips about us beating a Nets team with no VC, and Kid. And then playing a Philly team with no front court players.

Sixers are worse when Webber plays. they lost to a Euro team with Webber, first real NBA team to lose a Euro team. they beat PHX without Webber.

Dalembert is no prom queen, either.
¿ △ ?
wsdm
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10/15/2006  9:03 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by BlueSeats:

Ironically, this is not so far from what Brown was trying to do with a quickly initiated offense with the PG being but one distributor, without a reliance on the pick and roll and penetrate and dish, and with movement off the ball. Isiah is obviously more likable, but what he's asking of his guys probably isn't all that fundamentally different than Brown.

This is perhaps true in a broad sense, but the devil seems to be in the details. If there were not significant differences between Isiah's and Larry's offensive systems, I don't think we'd be hearing as many "night and day" quotes as we already have. In an analogy, maybe they're both socialist systems, but Larry was a dictator and it seems Isiah is running more of a democracy.


Maybe, we just don't know from where we stand, so I shorthanded it into Isiah (and/or his approach) being more likable.

But we all know, and it's all too redundant by now, that in the past Brown was initially perceived as unlikable, but the players did their jobs regardless and learned to love his teachings after they "got it." Our guys never got it. Hopefully now they will. And, hopefully, if Isiah departs they'll get it from the next guy. It's my continued hope they will evolve or get sent elsewhere.
So it's like two professors who are both geniuses: One can't teach his students and goes through complicated stuff no one understands (Brown), whereas the other knows how to connect with the students on their level (Isiah). I'm glad the students are taking classes with the latter now.


And where do all the other coaches of the likes of Marbury, Francis, Curry, Jalen, et al, fit in?
...as better "professors" than Brown was, no doubt.

www.selltheknicks.com----No more DOLANOMICS!
New Formula Spreads Knicks’ Work

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