Posted by bigbeast:

Posted by Bippity10:

some people don't like Marbs so they say bad things about him no matter what. Some people love Marbs so all they say is good things about him no matter what. Some hate some of the things he does, and some love some of the things he does. So what. They are just opinions. Just discuss the topic that's all.

I was responding to your sarcastic remarks about the so-called optimists. Now I make a few remarks about the so called negative posters and you say "So what, there just opinions." If thats your stance, what was the point of taking a shot at the so called optimists?


[Edited by - bigbeast on 10-12-2006 9:09 PM]

Because every post I make that asks a question ends in the post being hi-jacked by someone calling everyone a pessimist. I have no problem with positivity. If you think everything is rosy after a 23 win season that is your opinion. I have never biotched at someone about that. But to waste hours of type hi-jacking posts by not stating an opinion about the Knicks but instead trying to determine who is or isnt' a "real knick fan" is boring when some are trying to discuss basketball. This in my view deserves sarcasm

Posted by crzymdups:

Posted by fishmike:

style of play

We havent seen one since we were a playoff team (I dont count the last time we went)

Since Isiah brought in every single player on the roster I want to see some semblance of a style of play

thats what I want to see

What I expect to see it our starters blown out, poor teamwork, finger pointing and guys like Balkman and Nate put up great numbers in garbage time against NBDL non-roster invites. That alone should be enough to keep the koolaid pouring

hahahaha. Larry is gone, remember?

I expect to see a happy team playing much better than anyone expects.

of course they will be happy. They have no pressure, a built in scape goat and a coach that cant afford step on anyone's toes in fear that the new found "joy" might be killed. Not to mention they cant be fired and make 4 times their market value.

That job would make me happy too. Lets see if it translate into NBA wins

so you're saying successful teams are miserable?

how you pulled that out of what I wrote is totally beyond me.

Your right about one thing.. this team will probably win about another 15 games. 32-38 wins... yes, thats right around the career averages for most of our NBA vets.

I agree, now that the only thing stopping them from doing things the way the have always done is gone, they should go back to putting up good numbers and losing games as they always have.

that larry had us on the right track?

Yes.. I have been saying for 4 years the problem is the players, and the problem is STILL the players. It would have been nice to see how these guys reacted to forced change.

Why are you so sure it was Larry that tanked the season and not the players? What came first the chicken or the egg? We have seen Francis, Marbury, Jalen Rose all quit on coaches before.

It worked. They wanted to do it their way, and they got it. Larry's gone and now the little kids can do whatever they want to again. Joy has returned to Broadway. No more big meanie talking about how career losers dont play and work hard enough.

[Edited by - fishmike on 10-13-2006 10:37 AM]

Posted by joec32033:

Just don't embaress the franchise.

too late

Posted by fishmike:

that larry had us on the right track?

Yes.. I have been saying for 4 years the problem is the players, and the problem is STILL the players. It would have been nice to see how these guys reacted to forced change.

Why are you so sure it was Larry that tanked the season and not the players? What came first the chicken or the egg? We have seen Francis, Marbury, Jalen Rose all quit on coaches before.

It worked. They wanted to do it their way, and they got it. Larry's gone and now the little kids can do whatever they want to again. Joy has returned to Broadway. No more big meanie talking about how career losers dont play and work hard enough.

[Edited by - fishmike on 10-13-2006 10:37 AM]

I certainly doubt Francis and Rose, but I think we've all posted the quotes where Brown said he "begged" for both of them. I hated those trades, but I seriously believe that was Brown trying to oust Thomas by asking for them. I think Brown's whole mode of operation last season was predicated on getting control of personnel moves - something his good friends (and I'm not being sarcastic, guys that actually like working with him) Donnie Walsh and Billy King would NEVER give him (roster control, that is). IF I believed that Brown was doing the roster juggling and bad-mouthing players to actually improve the team, I would have been more patient with him. but I don't. I think he was out to create disorder and thought at the end of the day he had more cred than Isiah and he would be given coaching/GM duties and he could make his hometown team over with his players, playing the right way. Personally, I'm thrilled that he was wrong. I think Brown embarassed the franchise more than anyone I've seen here over 20 years.

Thomas has clearly made mistakes, Mo Taylor and Jerome James are atrocious, expensive disasters. But he's made good moves. When you say he doesn't have a plan, I don't agree, well mostly. I agree he does not have a plan to get under the cap. I don't think he felt he had the time. Remember his initial press conference with Dolan? He started to say rebuilding would take a few years, and I think he was content to build through the draft, etc. But Dolan cut him off in mid-sentence and said "we're making the playoffs this year, hands down." If you don't think that led directly to the Marbury trade, I don't know what to say. Dolan has had way too much of a hand in things since Checketts left. Regardless, I look at the roster and see a ridiculous ammount of talent for a team that is suposedly hamstrung by the cap and can't make moves:

Marbury, Crawford
Francis, Robinson
Jefferies, QRich, Balkman
Frye, DLee, MRose
Curry, Frye/James

I think that's a talented squad and that if guys are generally on the same page it will be successful. I don't buy the mismatched parts thing. The NY Times ran an article about how rarely Francis and Marbury were actually on the court together, despite Brown calling them Pearl and Clyde 2 - Brown said that, not Thomas. I think the big key over any other is how those two can play together. Briggs has said it - Francis is a horse. He is a superior athlete. If he's actually committed to winning and worrying about his legacy at all, as I think Marbury is, that's a hell of a backcourt. I don't know, if it doesn't work, it's all over after this year. But I really don't think Dolan will bring in anyone with a 3yr or 5yr plan ever.

for those that may have missed it...

Posted by crzymdups:

Posted by fishmike:

that larry had us on the right track?

Yes.. I have been saying for 4 years the problem is the players, and the problem is STILL the players. It would have been nice to see how these guys reacted to forced change.

Why are you so sure it was Larry that tanked the season and not the players? What came first the chicken or the egg? We have seen Francis, Marbury, Jalen Rose all quit on coaches before.

It worked. They wanted to do it their way, and they got it. Larry's gone and now the little kids can do whatever they want to again. Joy has returned to Broadway. No more big meanie talking about how career losers dont play and work hard enough.

[Edited by - fishmike on 10-13-2006 10:37 AM]

I certainly doubt Francis and Rose, but I think we've all posted the quotes where Brown said he "begged" for both of them. I hated those trades, but I seriously believe that was Brown trying to oust Thomas by asking for them. I think Brown's whole mode of operation last season was predicated on getting control of personnel moves - something his good friends (and I'm not being sarcastic, guys that actually like working with him) Donnie Walsh and Billy King would NEVER give him (roster control, that is). IF I believed that Brown was doing the roster juggling and bad-mouthing players to actually improve the team, I would have been more patient with him. but I don't. I think he was out to create disorder and thought at the end of the day he had more cred than Isiah and he would be given coaching/GM duties and he could make his hometown team over with his players, playing the right way. Personally, I'm thrilled that he was wrong. I think Brown embarassed the franchise more than anyone I've seen here over 20 years.

Thomas has clearly made mistakes, Mo Taylor and Jerome James are atrocious, expensive disasters. But he's made good moves. When you say he doesn't have a plan, I don't agree, well mostly. I agree he does not have a plan to get under the cap. I don't think he felt he had the time. Remember his initial press conference with Dolan? He started to say rebuilding would take a few years, and I think he was content to build through the draft, etc. But Dolan cut him off in mid-sentence and said "we're making the playoffs this year, hands down." If you don't think that led directly to the Marbury trade, I don't know what to say. Dolan has had way too much of a hand in things since Checketts left. Regardless, I look at the roster and see a ridiculous ammount of talent for a team that is suposedly hamstrung by the cap and can't make moves:

Marbury, Crawford
Francis, Robinson
Jefferies, QRich, Balkman
Frye, DLee, MRose
Curry, Frye/James

I think that's a talented squad and that if guys are generally on the same page it will be successful. I don't buy the mismatched parts thing. The NY Times ran an article about how rarely Francis and Marbury were actually on the court together, despite Brown calling them Pearl and Clyde 2 - Brown said that, not Thomas. I think the big key over any other is how those two can play together. Briggs has said it - Francis is a horse. He is a superior athlete. If he's actually committed to winning and worrying about his legacy at all, as I think Marbury is, that's a hell of a backcourt. I don't know, if it doesn't work, it's all over after this year. But I really don't think Dolan will bring in anyone with a 3yr or 5yr plan ever.

My expectations are that the team improve each game on offense and defense. We need to start out winning to get this team's confidence up and right now we are a long way defensively from being a good team. I think we can score with anyone, but we need better defensive effort from Curry and a few others if we are going to be a good team. I would like to see the defense improve over the preseason.

My expectations for this preseason is that I hope this team shows me that I have been wrong about doubting what this team can or can not do. I hope Marbury and Francis prove they are NOT ego-maniacs, I hope Curry shows me he can play CONSISTENT and I hope Frye shows me he can rebound and play defense consistently. So far, things are looking good in Knick-land, lets hope it continues.