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Why I think having Frye on the first team will hurt his development
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Silverfuel
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10/6/2006  7:13 AM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by oohah:

Who is most likely to be the Knicks' best front-court player this season?

Frye.

Now let's get serious.

oohah
What about Frye splitting time with Curry and Lee but coming off the bench? It wont be easy to avoid Steve, Steph and Curry being on the floor at the same time as Frye but if we can take out Steve or Curry for Frye, we might be in better shape? I agree with what King1 said that Frye might not get to do as much as the 4th option. Plus, I think Lee fits perfect with Curry cause Lee can rebound anything.



I just think you should start your best players unless the team is so good you can afford the luxury of bringing one of your top 5 off the bench.

oohah
Jalen starting would be a problem though. PG-Steph, SG-Steve, SF-Lee, PF-Frye, C-Curry I can live with. As long as Jalen isn't starting at SF. He would just **** **** up IMO. CurrLee Fryes baby!! BRING ON THE NBA!
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MS
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10/6/2006  9:13 AM
You want to come with a little scoring off the bench and i think that fryes best position would be at center because he is slow laterally and doesn't really have a nose for the ball, the knicks best unit might be

Marbury
Q
JJ
Lee
Frye

Its more uptempo and can spread the floor, and we get two competant defenders out there, and should be able to insert Francis, Nate, or Crawford into that lineup and still gain the edge we need, you insert stevie there and your rebounding is off the charts and you can really move
franco12
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10/6/2006  9:27 AM
Frye is our best, young player.

How do you not start him?

Its like saying after we drafted Patrick Ewing, he should come off the bench because he would be better in the second unit because he was more defensive minded, etc.

Now- I am not saying Frye is going to be a great player- just that of our young core, he is, in my judgement, the best.

Crawford should probably start too - but with francis and marbury, we've got to get something out of them either to win games or rebuild their value and trade them.

And to argue that because Curry is deficient in an area is reason to start someone else- that's just bad. If Curry can't hold his own on the boards or defensive end, bench him or trade him.
tomverve
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10/6/2006  9:30 AM
That's a valid concern, but I could see Frye thriving in that unit as well since he'd easily be the best midrange jump shooter and would likely get plenty of open looks as the D collapses on Curry's post ups and Marbury/Francis's drives. By the same token, I could see the first unit struggling with Lee starting just because that would further weaken the jump shooting. (Lee seems to be developing a better touch but he needs some time to set up his shot, whereas Frye seems to have a more natural, quicker shooting motion.)
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Allanfan20
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10/6/2006  9:41 AM
Jumpshooting is not a concern to me. If you're not gonna go with Frye in the lineup, and Lee instead, then replace Jefferies with Q at the 3 and you got 2 penetrators (Francis and Marbury) and 2 shooters (Marbury again and Quentin). Of course, if you really want to be gutsy, you take Francis out of the starting lineup and put Crawford in and you got yourself a go to scorer who can just go out there and hit his mid range shots and take it to the whole just as well as Francis. That's pretty much the starting lineup that I proposed above.

Having Frye and Curry in the starting lineup is gonna kill you on the boards and possibly defense, unless they both dramatically improved over the Summer. I doubt that. I bet they improved maybe even a lot, but not enough to keep me from feeling safe about that frontcourt.

Lee has the potential to be a board dominator. Let him roll with the big guns.
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Killa4luv
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10/6/2006  9:48 AM
Posted by bigbeast:

I think Fryes game is taylor made to play along side Marbury (pick and pop).
And this means the 4 can't double down on Curry. I think Frye is gonna explode this year in terms of point production. He was trying to explode last year. I love Frye.
tomverve
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10/6/2006  10:07 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Jumpshooting is not a concern to me.

It should be, at least as long as we're starting Marbury and Francis. Teams are going to pack it in in the lane against us with that backcourt so we'll need shooting from the fowards. I don't see Q as a solution really-- he's always been a poor percentage shooter, and he's especially attrocious from midrange. He can get on an occasional hot streak from 3 but otherwise he's awful. The only consistently dangerous jump shooting threats I see on this team are Craw, Frye, and Jalen.

check that: Nate too, maybe.

[Edited by - tomverve on 10-06-2006 10:08 AM]
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nixluva
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10/6/2006  10:40 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by bigbeast:

I think Fryes game is taylor made to play along side Marbury (pick and pop).
And this means the 4 can't double down on Curry. I think Frye is gonna explode this year in terms of point production. He was trying to explode last year. I love Frye.

Lee showed himself to be a better rebounder. Still Frye wasn't terrible. Per 48 minutes Lee was at 12.8 and Frye 11.3.

Another thing about Steph is he's NOT an early ball hog. In the beginning of games he almost ALWAYS sets up his teammates first. His biggest scoring qtr is usually the 3rd Qtr. So it's very likely that Frye will see the ball just fine if he's in the starting lineup. Frye and Steph are a perfect match. I'm not as familiar with Francis and his pick and roll game, but I think Frye is still starter material. If you're a starter you start, even if there's a reserve who is a better rebounder. Rasheed Wallace has pretty much maxed out at 19/8 and I think Frye is definitely capable of that. At last years rate of scoring and rebounding Frye would avg 17.2 pts & 8 rebs in 34 mpg.
Solace
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10/6/2006  11:36 AM
Seems like the real issue is that we're stuck starting Steve Francis. Hopefully Francis gets traded and this becomes a non-issue. I can see Frye getting frustrated with a lack of shots. Ideally, I think our best starting lineup would be Curry, Frye, Lee, Crawford and Marbury with JJ1, JJ2, Jalen, Q and Nate available off the bench. Until Francis is gone, that won't happen.

Right now I'd vote for starting Frye and see what happens, but I do agree that if things start to get bad with Frye not getting the ball, I'd swap him and Lee until Francis is traded.
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nyk4ever
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10/6/2006  11:40 AM
This is odd. Alot of you guys have such high hopes for this team and think that this team can make the playoffs. Well part of being a good TEAM is guys taking a backseat to other guys for the betterment of the team. We know Marbury and Francis have to start, it's the way they are and they will both bitch the WHOLE season if neither is starting. The BEST thing for the Knicks is Frye coming off the bench, he plays VERY well with the second unit and the KNICKS could use Lee's rebounding in the starting lineup. It's simply IMPERATIVE that the Knicks have rebounding in the starting lineup and not get killed by opposing front-lines on the boards, on a nightly basis. Frye is a better player than Lee, but Lee brings something that the starting lineup lacks and could sorely use meanwhile Fryes greatest asset of scoring isn't going to be utilized correctly in the starting lineup. This isn't that hard to grasp.

To become a championship team, you don't placate personalities, you placate the TEAM.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 10-06-2006 11:42 AM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
nixluva
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10/6/2006  12:01 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

This is odd. Alot of you guys have such high hopes for this team and think that this team can make the playoffs. Well part of being a good TEAM is guys taking a backseat to other guys for the betterment of the team. We know Marbury and Francis have to start, it's the way they are and they will both bitch the WHOLE season if neither is starting. The BEST thing for the Knicks is Frye coming off the bench, he plays VERY well with the second unit and the KNICKS could use Lee's rebounding in the starting lineup. It's simply IMPERATIVE that the Knicks have rebounding in the starting lineup and not get killed by opposing front-lines on the boards, on a nightly basis. Frye is a better player than Lee, but Lee brings something that the starting lineup lacks and could sorely use meanwhile Fryes greatest asset of scoring isn't going to be utilized correctly in the starting lineup. This isn't that hard to grasp.

To become a championship team, you don't placate personalities, you placate the TEAM.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 10-06-2006 11:42 AM]

Why is it that you think Frye won't be able to rebound when he clearly can rebound the ball? Based on last years stats If both Frye and Lee played 34mpg Frye would avg. 5.0 defensive rebs and Lee 5.8. To me that's not enough of a reason to sit your Best PF. Lee is a better rebounder, but not so much so that Frye pales in comparision. Frye is taller, longer, heavier and Stronger than Lee. Frye is a better shot blocker and intimidator. Frye's range will help to spread the floor, so that even when he's not scoring teams will have to keep a man near him to make sure he doesn't kill them. There are just too many reasons in Frye's favor for why he should start.
nyk4ever
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10/6/2006  12:16 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by nyk4ever:

This is odd. Alot of you guys have such high hopes for this team and think that this team can make the playoffs. Well part of being a good TEAM is guys taking a backseat to other guys for the betterment of the team. We know Marbury and Francis have to start, it's the way they are and they will both bitch the WHOLE season if neither is starting. The BEST thing for the Knicks is Frye coming off the bench, he plays VERY well with the second unit and the KNICKS could use Lee's rebounding in the starting lineup. It's simply IMPERATIVE that the Knicks have rebounding in the starting lineup and not get killed by opposing front-lines on the boards, on a nightly basis. Frye is a better player than Lee, but Lee brings something that the starting lineup lacks and could sorely use meanwhile Fryes greatest asset of scoring isn't going to be utilized correctly in the starting lineup. This isn't that hard to grasp.

To become a championship team, you don't placate personalities, you placate the TEAM.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 10-06-2006 11:42 AM]

Why is it that you think Frye won't be able to rebound when he clearly can rebound the ball? Based on last years stats If both Frye and Lee played 34mpg Frye would avg. 5.0 defensive rebs and Lee 5.8. To me that's not enough of a reason to sit your Best PF. Lee is a better rebounder, but not so much so that Frye pales in comparision. Frye is taller, longer, heavier and Stronger than Lee. Frye is a better shot blocker and intimidator. Frye's range will help to spread the floor, so that even when he's not scoring teams will have to keep a man near him to make sure he doesn't kill them. There are just too many reasons in Frye's favor for why he should start.

I don't need stats to tell me that Lee is a better rebounder. I saw Frye get pushed around when the ball is up in the air and Lee doesn't get pushed around. Frye is also neither a shotblocker nor a intimdator but neither is Lee. I would much rather have Lee's rebounding and hustle in the starting lineup becuase the other starters bring none of that! Scoring isn't necessary in the starting lineup from the powerforward so you might as well put someone there who brings 2 things that the lineup doesn't have. Rebounding and hustle are 2 of those things. Balance is key and I think Lee would really balance out the starting lineup much better.
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Allanfan20
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10/6/2006  12:21 PM
It's not that Frye isn't a good starter. Actually, we don't quite know yet. It's what fits best with each starting lineup. If we didn't have Curry and a post up foward instead, say Sweetney, who can rebound the ball very well, then he might be a better fit. If we had a shotblocker/rebounder then Frye would be another exceptional fit in the starting lineup. But we don't have any of that. A lineup of Frye and Curry is scary on offense but it's also scary for Knick fans on defense. What have we learned? Defense wins championships. Frye can easily still get 30 minutes off the bench.
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nyk4ever
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10/6/2006  12:24 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

It's not that Frye isn't a good starter. Actually, we don't quite know yet. It's what fits best with each starting lineup. If we didn't have Curry and a post up foward instead, say Sweetney, who can rebound the ball very well, then he might be a better fit. If we had a shotblocker/rebounder then Frye would be another exceptional fit in the starting lineup. But we don't have any of that. A lineup of Frye and Curry is scary on offense but it's also scary for Knick fans on defense. What have we learned? Defense wins championships. Frye can easily still get 30 minutes off the bench.

Exactly allan, exactly.
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franco12
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10/6/2006  12:27 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by nyk4ever:

This is odd. Alot of you guys have such high hopes for this team and think that this team can make the playoffs. Well part of being a good TEAM is guys taking a backseat to other guys for the betterment of the team. We know Marbury and Francis have to start, it's the way they are and they will both bitch the WHOLE season if neither is starting. The BEST thing for the Knicks is Frye coming off the bench, he plays VERY well with the second unit and the KNICKS could use Lee's rebounding in the starting lineup. It's simply IMPERATIVE that the Knicks have rebounding in the starting lineup and not get killed by opposing front-lines on the boards, on a nightly basis. Frye is a better player than Lee, but Lee brings something that the starting lineup lacks and could sorely use meanwhile Fryes greatest asset of scoring isn't going to be utilized correctly in the starting lineup. This isn't that hard to grasp.

To become a championship team, you don't placate personalities, you placate the TEAM.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 10-06-2006 11:42 AM]

Why is it that you think Frye won't be able to rebound when he clearly can rebound the ball? Based on last years stats If both Frye and Lee played 34mpg Frye would avg. 5.0 defensive rebs and Lee 5.8. To me that's not enough of a reason to sit your Best PF. Lee is a better rebounder, but not so much so that Frye pales in comparision. Frye is taller, longer, heavier and Stronger than Lee. Frye is a better shot blocker and intimidator. Frye's range will help to spread the floor, so that even when he's not scoring teams will have to keep a man near him to make sure he doesn't kill them. There are just too many reasons in Frye's favor for why he should start.

I don't need stats to tell me that Lee is a better rebounder. I saw Frye get pushed around when the ball is up in the air and Lee doesn't get pushed around. Frye is also neither a shotblocker nor a intimdator but neither is Lee. I would much rather have Lee's rebounding and hustle in the starting lineup becuase the other starters bring none of that! Scoring isn't necessary in the starting lineup from the powerforward so you might as well put someone there who brings 2 things that the lineup doesn't have. Rebounding and hustle are 2 of those things. Balance is key and I think Lee would really balance out the starting lineup much better.


Before Frye got hurt, he had, from what I observed, improved a great deal in terms of aggressiveness.

I'm not worried about him on the defensive end.
franco12
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10/6/2006  12:30 PM
Francis and Marbury, due to contracts, are going to start in the back court.

Neither are solid, reliable or consistent outside shooters.

Frye is the only player on this knick team, besides our midget Nate, who can, in my view from what I have seen, be a consistent threat from mid range.

You can't not start him.

And don't talk about Francis and Marbury being ball hogs- that is something that Isiah will fix with his offensive style of play- and if it doesn't work out, Isiah is gone.
MS
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10/6/2006  12:41 PM
Lee does a lot of things that Frye can not do, one is finish in an uptempo offense he attacks the rim better on the break and is more fluid, he improved his post moves considerably and his mid range is getting better.....

Frye picks up fouls which hurts us later in the game, we are not benching Frye the guy is going to get 30 minutes a game and will have a lot of oppurtunities to score, he is a better match up at center for us because he can take the big man out of the lane and its hard to defend his jumper.....

He is not an instinctive player like lee is, he can facilitate better and make the pass to open things up.....

Curry is so out of shape he is going to need a rest right away and Frye will pounce on the second unit.....and we can maximize his minutes at both positions

Fyre is slow moving and not very athletic and every pf can put the ball on the floor and get by him, we need him in the game late....i am sure he improved his rebounding but he added more bulk about 20 pounds which will help his post game but hurt his quickness, he is still learning how to use his body in the post and is very awkard right now.....
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10/6/2006  12:41 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by nyk4ever:

This is odd. Alot of you guys have such high hopes for this team and think that this team can make the playoffs. Well part of being a good TEAM is guys taking a backseat to other guys for the betterment of the team. We know Marbury and Francis have to start, it's the way they are and they will both bitch the WHOLE season if neither is starting. The BEST thing for the Knicks is Frye coming off the bench, he plays VERY well with the second unit and the KNICKS could use Lee's rebounding in the starting lineup. It's simply IMPERATIVE that the Knicks have rebounding in the starting lineup and not get killed by opposing front-lines on the boards, on a nightly basis. Frye is a better player than Lee, but Lee brings something that the starting lineup lacks and could sorely use meanwhile Fryes greatest asset of scoring isn't going to be utilized correctly in the starting lineup. This isn't that hard to grasp.

To become a championship team, you don't placate personalities, you placate the TEAM.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 10-06-2006 11:42 AM]

Why is it that you think Frye won't be able to rebound when he clearly can rebound the ball? Based on last years stats If both Frye and Lee played 34mpg Frye would avg. 5.0 defensive rebs and Lee 5.8. To me that's not enough of a reason to sit your Best PF. Lee is a better rebounder, but not so much so that Frye pales in comparision. Frye is taller, longer, heavier and Stronger than Lee. Frye is a better shot blocker and intimidator. Frye's range will help to spread the floor, so that even when he's not scoring teams will have to keep a man near him to make sure he doesn't kill them. There are just too many reasons in Frye's favor for why he should start.

I don't need stats to tell me that Lee is a better rebounder. I saw Frye get pushed around when the ball is up in the air and Lee doesn't get pushed around. Frye is also neither a shotblocker nor a intimdator but neither is Lee. I would much rather have Lee's rebounding and hustle in the starting lineup becuase the other starters bring none of that! Scoring isn't necessary in the starting lineup from the powerforward so you might as well put someone there who brings 2 things that the lineup doesn't have. Rebounding and hustle are 2 of those things. Balance is key and I think Lee would really balance out the starting lineup much better.

Well I don't care what you're eyes told you, the FACT is that Frye rebounded very similar to what Lee did on the defensive boards on a per minute basis. I like Lee and I actually liked him in the SL last year, but if I had to choose between the two for this starting unit, i'd take Frye.

As for Frye not blocking shots, he may not have been great at it last year, but he has more ability in that regard than Lee does. In Nov. Frye had 11 blks in 14 games and Dec. Frye had 16 blocks in 14 games
Then his production dipped to 5 in 16 games for Jan., 7 in 12 games for Feb. then 8 in 10 games for Mar.
The guy DOES have potential to be a decent shotblocker. Part of the problem is the way the team is playing as a whole and Frye knowing his role. He still has a lot to learn, but he has the potential just the same.

Frye doesn't have to always score, but the fact that he is a legitimate THREAT to score with range is a plus for the starters. He is a much more effective Pick and pop player and that will make things tough on defenders. To drive the ball like Steph and Francis want to do, you need a good Pick and Pop PF.
nyk4ever
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10/6/2006  12:51 PM
Posted by nixluva:

Well I don't care what you're eyes told you, the FACT is that Frye rebounded very similar to what Lee did on the defensive boards on a per minute basis. I like Lee and I actually liked him in the SL last year, but if I had to choose between the two for this starting unit, i'd take Frye.

As for Frye not blocking shots, he may not have been great at it last year, but he has more ability in that regard than Lee does. In Nov. Frye had 11 blks in 14 games and Dec. Frye had 16 blocks in 14 games
Then his production dipped to 5 in 16 games for Jan., 7 in 12 games for Feb. then 8 in 10 games for Mar.
The guy DOES have potential to be a decent shotblocker. Part of the problem is the way the team is playing as a whole and Frye knowing his role. He still has a lot to learn, but he has the potential just the same.

Frye doesn't have to always score, but the fact that he is a legitimate THREAT to score with range is a plus for the starters. He is a much more effective Pick and pop player and that will make things tough on defenders. To drive the ball like Steph and Francis want to do, you need a good Pick and Pop PF.

I totally disagree with you and like usual we're not going to agree. No reason to get testy man, we're jsut talking here. Chill out.

Why make Frye a THREAT to score with the 1st unit when you can run him THE scorer with the 2nd unit? He plays well Crawford and Nate and with the 2nd unit, Frye can be the focal point of the offense. It makes a ton of sense. Also, you can still run your Pick and Pop with Crawford.

I think alot of you just want Frye starting becuase he was the 8th pick in the draft. This shouldn't be about appeasing players and coach/gm egos, this should be about doing what is best for the team. Frye fits with the 2nd unit very well, theres no reason to change it.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 10-06-2006 12:51 PM]
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tomverve
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10/6/2006  1:11 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

Frye is a better player than Lee, but Lee brings something that the starting lineup lacks and could sorely use meanwhile Fryes greatest asset of scoring isn't going to be utilized correctly in the starting lineup. This isn't that hard to grasp.

Quite the contrary, seems to me Frye's greatest asset is going to be a necessary component of the offense on a starting lineup that presumably features Curry, Jeffries, Marbury, and Francis. Teams are going to zone us up, pack the lane and dare us to shoot. Frye is a shooting threat who could help stretch out that D a bit and in the process make life easier for Curry and the backcourt. Lee, not so much. It's too simplistic to just say this guy is a good scorer and won't be needed or used properly in a lineup that already has ample scoring-- you need to consider how those scorers are going to mesh as a unit. Frye's strength complements the glaring weakness existing in the SL otherwise. Maybe Frye scores slightly less in the starting lineup than off the bench, but I'd wager that the overall team performance would be enhanced, which is what really matters.
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