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Balkman is going to cause one of these guys to be benched!
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wsdm
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10/2/2006  4:50 PM
Okay then Steph made huge strides too because he had a good week in January. If three weeks qualify, why can't one week?
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Bippity10
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10/2/2006  5:02 PM
Okay, once again noone said he made "huge strides". Fish simply said he made "the biggest strides" out of the Knicks..........Never mind another pointless argument. The season can't start soon enough.

As for your post I to think Steph made huge strides during the good week in January. He then took 18 strides backwards afterwards. Jamal played well at the end of the year and has not yet had the chance to stride backwards. Overall noone had a big season. No one makes big strides on a team that won 23 games. Noone!!!! But that wasn't the point of Fish's post.
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wsdm
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10/2/2006  5:39 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Okay, once again noone said he made "huge strides". Fish simply said he made "the biggest strides" out of the Knicks

Now THAT is just semantics

[Edited by - wsdm on 10-02-2006 5:40 PM]
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fishmike
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10/3/2006  7:17 AM
actually for Crawford, I think they were pretty big strides. Here was a guy that defended nobody, didnt rebound and > 50% of his shot select were deep 3's. He avoided contact rarely went to the line. Last year he had several games where he grapped numberous rebounds, he took more FTs than 3's and generally played better D.

Hopefully we see more of that.
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wsdm
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10/3/2006  7:34 AM
There was a little improvement, no doubt. But tell me why a guy with his speed and ball-handling can't get to the line 8 to 11 times a game like guys like Marbury, Iverson, Baron, Francis, etc.
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fishmike
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10/3/2006  9:05 AM
There was a little improvement, no doubt. But tell me why a guy with his speed and ball-handling can't get to the line 8 to 11 times a game like guys like Marbury, Iverson, Baron, Francis, etc.

BTW, Iverson is the only guy you mentioned that lives on the line or comes close to those #s. Baron Davis, Marbury, Francis.. are all 5-6 FT attempt guys for their careers. Last year Jamal went there 4.5 (his career is 2.5) and his minbutes were down. He almost doubled his trips to the FT line when you factor in his lesser minutes.

Thats an impressive change IMO.
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fishmike
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10/3/2006  9:15 AM
on a side note Crawford had 22 games where he went to the line at least 7 times.
Had 15 games of 5 or more rebounds

In April when everyone else quit Crawford averaged 22 points, 5.7 assists, 3.7 rebounds and 2.4 assists.

Maybe figuring Larry would have staying power he was just playing for next year. Maybe was just not willing to quit like the other guys.

Regardless he pretty much became my favorite Knick simply because he listened to a HOF coach, made changes in his game and played hard regardless of the quitters he was surrounded by.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bippity10
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10/3/2006  9:15 AM
Posted by fishmike:

actually for Crawford, I think they were pretty big strides. Here was a guy that defended nobody, didnt rebound and > 50% of his shot select were deep 3's. He avoided contact rarely went to the line. Last year he had several games where he grapped numberous rebounds, he took more FTs than 3's and generally played better D.

Hopefully we see more of that.

Wo wo wo wo!!!! Earlier fish you said "big strides". Now you are saying "pretty big strides". Which is it flip flopper?

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fishmike
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10/3/2006  9:18 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by fishmike:

actually for Crawford, I think they were pretty big strides. Here was a guy that defended nobody, didnt rebound and > 50% of his shot select were deep 3's. He avoided contact rarely went to the line. Last year he had several games where he grapped numberous rebounds, he took more FTs than 3's and generally played better D.

Hopefully we see more of that.

Wo wo wo wo!!!! Earlier fish you said "big strides". Now you are saying "pretty big strides". Which is it flip flopper?
well, they are pretty big strides, but he's threatening to make REALLY big ones.
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martin
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10/3/2006  9:36 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by fishmike:

actually for Crawford, I think they were pretty big strides. Here was a guy that defended nobody, didnt rebound and > 50% of his shot select were deep 3's. He avoided contact rarely went to the line. Last year he had several games where he grapped numberous rebounds, he took more FTs than 3's and generally played better D.

Hopefully we see more of that.

Wo wo wo wo!!!! Earlier fish you said "big strides". Now you are saying "pretty big strides". Which is it flip flopper?

LOLOLOL
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wsdm
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10/3/2006  10:44 AM
Posted by fishmike:
There was a little improvement, no doubt. But tell me why a guy with his speed and ball-handling can't get to the line 8 to 11 times a game like guys like Marbury, Iverson, Baron, Francis, etc.

BTW, Iverson is the only guy you mentioned that lives on the line or comes close to those #s. Baron Davis, Marbury, Francis.. are all 5-6 FT attempt guys for their careers. Last year Jamal went there 4.5 (his career is 2.5) and his minbutes were down. He almost doubled his trips to the FT line when you factor in his lesser minutes.

Thats an impressive change IMO.

It's baby steps but he has a long way to go. It would be like saying getting 7 RPG is impressive improvement from Curry. To me, it's improvement but still underachieving.
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wsdm
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10/3/2006  10:47 AM
Posted by fishmike:

on a side note Crawford had 22 games where he went to the line at least 7 times.
Had 15 games of 5 or more rebounds

In April when everyone else quit Crawford averaged 22 points, 5.7 assists, 3.7 rebounds and 2.4 assists.

He played well for that one month; I'm curious what his assit to turnover ratio was. If I remember correctly, it was still pretty bad (just to give some perspective--probably comparable to the worst month in that stat of Marbury's career)

[Edited by - wsdm on 10-03-2006 10:47 AM]
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martin
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10/3/2006  10:52 AM
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by fishmike:

on a side note Crawford had 22 games where he went to the line at least 7 times.
Had 15 games of 5 or more rebounds

In April when everyone else quit Crawford averaged 22 points, 5.7 assists, 3.7 rebounds and 2.4 assists.

He played well for that one month; I'm curious what his assit to turnover ratio was. If I remember correctly, it was still pretty bad (just to give some perspective--probably comparable to the worst month in that stat of Marbury's career)

[Edited by - wsdm on 10-03-2006 10:47 AM]

we are talking progress, not tit-for-tat, right?
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fishmike
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10/3/2006  10:53 AM
assist to TO was just under 2:1
5.7 to 3.3 for the month

Marbury has always been great at taking care of the ball. You wont hear me knock that part of his game, or any part of his offense for that matter. He doesnt play a lick of D, cant stay in front of his man and does zero rebounding. Marbury's solid when the ball is in his hands. When its not he's fodder.

Anyway this isnt about how great Crawford is. He's not... he's good. My main point was that he showed significant improvement (A) and didnt quit when the the "stars" did (B).
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wsdm
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10/3/2006  10:55 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by fishmike:

on a side note Crawford had 22 games where he went to the line at least 7 times.
Had 15 games of 5 or more rebounds

In April when everyone else quit Crawford averaged 22 points, 5.7 assists, 3.7 rebounds and 2.4 assists.

He played well for that one month; I'm curious what his assit to turnover ratio was. If I remember correctly, it was still pretty bad (just to give some perspective--probably comparable to the worst month in that stat of Marbury's career)

[Edited by - wsdm on 10-03-2006 10:47 AM]

we are talking progress, not tit-for-tat, right?

Progress while still underachieving, sure. 1.7:1 A/TO ratio is not bad. It's the best we could ask for for Crawford. If he can pull that off for a full season, I'll be happy.
Marbury's not the disasterous rebounder Fish makes him out to be. He's no Allan Houston. He gets maybe 0.3 less than he should for his playing time.


[Edited by - wsdm on 10-03-2006 10:56 AM]
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Bippity10
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10/3/2006  11:02 AM
Jamal Crawford(March 26-April 19th, last 14 games)

20.7 pts
3.4 rebs
5.0 assists
3.0 TO's
44% FG
83% FT(Averaged 7.4 attempts per game)
2.29 Steals

Did he have a good year? No. Did he make strides at the end? Yes. I think it's tough to say because that would be like saying someone learned something last year. And we of course can't say that.
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Bippity10
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10/3/2006  11:03 AM
Outside of the rebounding those numbers are pretty much what you could expect Stevie Franis to put up. No?
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wsdm
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10/3/2006  12:05 PM
That's an awfully small sample size but it's exactly the #s I think he's capable of putting up for full seasons. That's why I find him to be such a disappointing tease.
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Bippity10
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10/3/2006  12:13 PM
Again wsdm it remains to be seen for all the guys. Jamal is not getting a pass for 23 wins, but he does get credit for the way he ended the season and the way he handled adversity. Is that bad? Should we stop?
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wsdm
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10/3/2006  12:59 PM
Should we stop?
I won't give him credit until he plays to his potential in meaningful games for a full season. Are my expectations too high?
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Balkman is going to cause one of these guys to be benched!
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