Posted by tapseer:

Nixluva, you're like one of maybe three guys that makes sense around here. It's amazing how you're always defending yourself about how good you feel about the team. Keep it up!!!

Posted by BRIGGS:

--->PAYROLL has NOTHING to do with it

Sure it does, it has everything to do with it. It's called management. When you are given an open checkbook to the tune of doubling most other teams payrolls and you produce putrid teams, the buck stops here. (A) Everyone blames LB???? but no one says how much money Isiah has spent on coaches alone. He made the decision to hire LB with this group--it's HIS management call. EVERYONE knew LB was a shaky propositiuon with his health and history and they bought it anyway, like they bought the Jerome James's of the world. Most people on this forum are intelligent and don't listen to $pin jobs like this. (B) You are what your record is and your actions speak louder than words. On top of it, we have a TERRIBLE back up hire at the GM position and there is NO WAY in heck that he left the TBE to come here for nothing less than a large $ and year commitment. Yes the same guy we fleeced oak for Camby.

It's obvious that your post really wasn't about Jared Jeffries and 20+ wins; but to jump on the very first post that mentioned Larry Brown.

However if you were patient in your reading you would have discovered that:

(A) ....I mentioned something about the team's woes on Brown's experimenting with 40 something line-ups, the players attitudes & lack of understanding, and Knicks management bringing in new players (hurting team chemistry).....so out of all that; where am I placing the blame squarely on Larry Brown? Talk about spinning?

(B) ....If you are only as good as your record; then wouldn't that account for every single person that worked in the New York Knicks organization...(to include the head coach last year: Larry Brown?). People want to make comments and post cliches; but if you're going to do something like that, then make sure it fits the point you're trying to make. So if your plan is to blame the players for being 23-59; don't forget to include the coach of that team.

I'm not an enemy of Larry Brown. I like him as a coach; but he did have a lot to do with last year's fiasco. If the Knicks were patient with Brown and worked through the muck; then eventually he would have turned this ship around (no matter how underhanded the approach might have been or seemed).

Brown's improvement would have taken 3-4 more years for this team with the bad contracts that would be hard to move. In the end for the Knicks to have had success; the team of Brown, Marbury, Thomas & Dolan would not have been together when it happened. Eventually that foursome would have to be broken up.

Brown was the first casualty on the road to success. By the time we get there we may lose two more from the group of three that remain; but we'll eventually get there. No team stays on the bottom for ever; just like no team stays on the top for ever.

You have to take time to see what you have, and reach for the positives out of the negatives the majority wants to continue to point out. Out of the three reamaing cogs:

(1) Marbury still has game. Can possibly still turn it back around and get it going with some of these players we have on this team who have yet to play to their potential.

(2) Isaih Thomas still has the heart & desire to be successful and turn this franchise around. Does he make mistakes? Without question he does do that....but in his attempts, he might come up with the right move or moves to orchestrate a turn around for this team just based on the fact that he's not a stagnant GM. Most of us suffered hard through the Scott Layden era where there never was any movement, and when we had an opportunity to compete for some decent free-agents out there we were bypassed by those players and other GMs.

(3) Dolan still has money. As long as he does; then what are we worrying about? We're not paying Larry Johnson's salary, or Luc Longly, or Hawthorne Wingo's...etc

Aren't we suppose to be talking about Jared Jeffries and the Knicks 20+ wins this year any way?



[Edited by - NJK on 10-02-2006 01:12 AM]

[Edited by - NJK on 10-02-2006 01:13 AM]

[Edited by - NJK on 10-02-2006 01:16 AM]

Posted by oohah:

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by NJK:

I agree with oohah. Last year's record was not indicutive of how this team really should be. there were too many distractions going on with Larry Brown, the players & management combined. 40 some odd different starting line-ups; players pouting, and under achieving/ lack of understanding; management making lots of moves bringing in more players making chemistry difficult.

If anything the year before our 23-59 record, this team should have gotten closer to 40-44 wins. It's still going to take a "little" time for them to jell; but one season has been lost where we could have been trying to improve from this team that "should" have won around 40 last season.

If they do win 40-44 this year; it will be looked upon as a great improvement by the media likes; but to me that's just hyped; because this team should have been on the road to recovery without the fiasco of last season to set them back.

So it's more than Jared Jeffries....it's the improvement of our sophmores, or new blooded rookies, and some veteran's with something to prove.

Everyone involved will be better off with a normal rotation through the whole season.

I think it's baloney. I think there is a fair amount of people who have gone overboard with LB. I will be the first to agree that at times he played guys either to little or to long[at times] but I never sensed even 1 minute where he was trying to throw a game. I would take the Mets and Yankees[especially the Yankees} as examples. Both teams lost key rotation players but were still able to win with what they had--using multiple line-up changes and no set rotation anywhere pitching or every day guys. But when they put someone in, they STEPPED up. We have a 125mm+ payroll, we have players on the bench other teams can afford[although this may lead to poor chemistry?]but nonetheless we have them. Anyone can STEP up, the problem is we were just bad. OUR personell was not condusive to defense/shot blocking, we werent very fast, smart, we didnt play tough--forget the coach--this team was a band of misfits gathered of of losing teams---anyone want to counter that? We have a lot of guys who are INCONSISTENT their whole careers or that have physical flaw. A lot of 1-1 guys me first our big moves last year were to bring in an underacheiving C and PAY a HUGE price for him and also spend 30mm on a player who gave nothing. So we go out and spend another 30mm on a player who hasnt EARNED 30mm and bypass BETTER players in the draft for guys who will be questionable guys for quite some time IMHO.
IF we were in the west, we'd be done, finsished caput before game 1. As is, while the east did not improve--perhaps even taking a step back--I dont see where we IMPROVED enough to materially change things. I do think we win game 1 and I do think we dont start 2-7 for the first time in several years, but I dont see anything more than 35 wins top out.
Is that a success with multiple years of paying all of this money? No way, any other industry everyone would be out.
You are what your record is. LB is an excuse--look hard at what the players did--they didnt play hard smart and to many me first gu7ys--thats why we won 23 games.

Okay Briggs, that's an understandable opinion. I have a question: What qualifies as a success for this season?

oohah

Brigg's echoed what I have been saying since Layden was here. I guess oohah like's Briggs writing style better. You can only blame Larry so much. Guys still have to miss shots. Guys still have to let their opponents score on them, etc etc

there is no excuses for this year, just like there wasnt one for last year. Its on the players first because they are on the court and the GM second because he picked them. Not rocket science.

It's about the players, the coach, and the system in place.

Posted by rvhoss:

Posted by fishmike:

there is no excuses for this year, just like there wasnt one for last year. Its on the players first because they are on the court and the GM second because he picked them. Not rocket science.

so does this place the coach 3rd?

You know, this team might have a bunch of idiots on it that don't know how to play the game. But as a knick fan, I grew frustrated with the way Hubie Brown called every single play from the bench- ditto for Van Gundy.

If lB knew his players were dumb, why didn't he install an offense for dumb players and call out every play from the bench like other coaches?

Posted by BRIGGS:

I'm not going to sit here and wildly guess a 20+ improvement--I guess that's what my intial thought was. I'm very confused with this team-I need to evaluate it to see where long-term fits are, and what we can do in the short term to wins games. Not only did we win 23 games last year--we were PUMMELED multiple times. I don't sense where chmeistry will change that much--yes Mo Taylor is gone, but to much clutter is still present---is jefferies enough to turn around our defense? no way I dont even know if Jared Jefferies is talented enough to start NBA basketball--I know he did in Washington, but he wasnt very good. He's kind of our Jarrod Collins at the 3 instead of 4 and I think Collins is the Nets weak link.

Im going to sit back and look at +10 or so games and something of a rotation materializes--I get to see if guys like Crawford and Curry are long term answers--what Frye does with more minutes--lets see what marbury does, who the first complaints come from etc... to many question marks to say 42+ wins