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Since everyone loves to post player quotes... How about Mo Taylor
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Bippity10
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9/28/2006  11:44 AM
Slimpack he's making the comments based on his own opinion not based on whether he likes LB or not. We need more of that. Here's how I break it down:

"First and foremost, we're a bad team," said Taylor, who arrived into New York yesterday from his home in Houston.

He's not saying we have no talent. He is saying we are a bad TEAM. TEAM DAMNIT TEAM. We have yet to show that we can play together as a team. We are great individually but 23 wins means you are a bad team. It's okay to admit that. You can become a better team but at some point you have to admit to yourself that things aren't all great and that their are flaws that YOU MUST FIX!!!!

"Let's get that out of the way first. It's not all of a sudden we weren't winning. How did Don Chaney do? How did Lenny Wilkens do? How did Herb Williams do? It's not like we were just bad lately. So I don't look at it as Larry failing miserably.

We won 23 games last year. Previous seasons we were in the mid 30's. When did that become good???????? Oh, when you settle that's when. We have been bad for a few years now. We have fired coach after coach after coach after coach. Reality is reality. Once again, it's okay to admit that. It's the only way you make changes. It's great for once to hear someone sya it was OUR FAULT. Not someone else's. When do we as fans get sick of the excuses???? When we stop settling, that's when.

"The most surprising part is they fired him with so many years left on his contract," Taylor said. "And he's also a Hall of Fame coach."

We hired a guy with a specific style and then traded for players that don't fit that style. We wanted him to change 30 years of coaching to match what we wanted to do. We wanted 30 yeras of methodical changes and play to magically become uptempo overnight. In reality Isiah did not want LB as a coach. He wanted an uptempo coach but he needed LB's name to create a buzz. In the end, oil and water=failure. Who's fault is that??? We hired LB to do a job his way and then refused to allow him to do it his way. LB failed by not leading us to more victories. But Isiah failed by hiring yet another coahc that does not fit into a long-term plan.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 09-28-2006 11:45 AM]
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Bippity10
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9/28/2006  11:49 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by oohah:
I don't know about that. Wilkens and Herb combined for 17-36 (.320) after Marbury anointed himself the best. That's NOT respectable. Across 82 games that amounts to 26 wins.

If you break down their records by their tenure and not some arbitrary time period where they only did bad, you will find that they were respectable.

It's not arbitrary at all, it's when our "leader" made a buffoon of himself and alienated himself from his teammates. it's the day a 16-13 record turned on a dime to a 2-18 streak and an 17-36 ending. It might be slightly more arbitrary than the day he demanded a trade from Minny, or wrote "all alone" on his sneakers, or alienated Marion and Amare, but probably not much more.
Then we lost Nazr, TT, Sweets, and Kurt, plus the team of quitters quit. Considering all that, a dropoff of 3 games to 23-59 (.280) was not much at all.

Gimme a break.

You mean allow you a dodge? Why you think a 23-59 season is totally unrelated to the 17-36 second half season that immediately preceded it is beyond me. And apparently beyond Mo too.
But lets hope we can shed the legacy of Brown and get back to respectability.

26 wins here we come!!!

More like 38. Just what everyone would have crapped themselves with glee over if LB had done it.

I'll never understand this double standard...

oohah

It's you who hold the double standard. I consider both seasons abominations while you consider a gutless performance under Wilkens and Berb respectable while one just marginally worse under Brown is deemed evil.



[Edited by - blueSeats on 09-28-2006 11:43 AM]

The question becomes: If those seasons were respectable why were the coach's fired and the roster jettisoned?

Ooh ahh we have been bad for a while you just have difficulty admitting it. Last year was miserable. It was horrible. LB played a large part in that, but I didn't feel any worse last year than the year we won 32 or 35 or 38. It's all bad. It's just a different flavor of bad. I guess you just like that flavor more than I do.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 09-28-2006 11:50 AM]
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oohah
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9/28/2006  11:52 AM
It's you who hold the double standard. I consider both seasons abominations while you consider a gutless performance under Wilkens and Berb respectable while one just marginally worse under Brown is deemed evil.

The team's performances under Herb and Williams were not gutless. They battled injuries and at least gutted out mediocre performances.

To compare it to LB's 23 game debacle is like comparing a fender-bender to an 8 car pile-up. The 8 car pileup is worse than the fender-bender no matter how you look at it.

39 wins - mediocre

33 wins - bad

Herb Williams 16 - 27 bad.

23 wins - an abominitation

***

Lenny Wilkens - 40-41 Not bad considering what he had to work with and all the upheaval, and that includes the worst month in team history!

Don Chaney - 72 - 112 Bad, but the man had nothing to work with. An admirable job and he handled himself with dignity, though the garden treated him like garbage.

Herb Williams - Took a team that was totally injusred and demoralized, yet he still managed to go .372. At least he was trying!

Larry Brown - 23 -59 - Had so much more to work with than his predecessors, had the red carpet rolled out, dropped his pants and sh!tted on it. An abomination.

If you say LB's is only slightly worse, that is a double standard blue.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
EnySpree
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9/28/2006  11:58 AM
This conversation is tired already.

Taylor was one of the main guys complaining about Larry brown.

I'm not gonna get banned today so I'm leaving this alone.
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Bippity10
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9/28/2006  11:58 AM
Posted by oohah:
It's you who hold the double standard. I consider both seasons abominations while you consider a gutless performance under Wilkens and Berb respectable while one just marginally worse under Brown is deemed evil.

The team's performances under Herb and Williams were not gutless. They battled injuries and at least gutted out mediocre performances.

To compare it to LB's 23 game debacle is like comparing a fender-bender to an 8 car pile-up. The 8 car pileup is worse than the fender-bender no matter how you look at it.

39 wins - mediocre

33 wins - bad

Herb Williams 16 - 27 bad.

23 wins - an abominitation

***

Lenny Wilkens - 40-41 Not bad considering what he had to work with and all the upheaval, and that includes the worst month in team history!

Don Chaney - 72 - 112 Bad, but the man had nothing to work with. An admirable job and he handled himself with dignity, though the garden treated him like garbage.

Herb Williams - Took a team that was totally injusred and demoralized, yet he still managed to go .372. At least he was trying!

Larry Brown - 23 -59 - Had so much more to work with than his predecessors, had the red carpet rolled out, dropped his pants and sh!tted on it. An abomination.

If you say LB's is only slightly worse, that is a double standard blue.

oohah

Just goes to prove that Ooh ahh likes some bad better than others.
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Bippity10
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9/28/2006  12:10 PM
We have not been a factor in the East in any of those seasons. We have fired each coach and turned over entirely all the rosters. Good teams don't do this. Bad teams do. We have been bad. We will eventually be good again. And when we do the roster will look exactly like all the pessimists have been saying since before we traded for Dice. And then some freak will come to me and say I told you so. I've watched nearly 6 years of avoiding a version of the plan that most of us have been calling for. Six years of wondering when are we going to stop getting players and coaches that we are going to fire, buy out or use as trade bait. And settle on a plan of building.

I've watched 5 years of players pointing fingers at coaches and saying it's them not me. I've listened to 5 years of fans saying we will be better when we get rid of X coach. I haven't forgotten the "anybody but Don" chants. I haven't forgotten the "Donald Duck is better than Lenny". I haven't forgotten the "LB will turn us into Phoenix EAst". All the while I have been screaming that it is the organization not the coach. The problem is an organization that has taken the power away from the coach and given it to the players. An organization that forces GM's and coaches to make trades to improve the record for today in order to save their jobs even if it goes against a long-term plan. An organization that hires and then pits coach vs. GM instead of finding guys on the same page.

It finally appears that reality has set in. Rock bottom 23 wins was the best thing to happen to us. You guys complain but it was the best thing. NOw we are seeing role players and defensive guys that we called for 5 godddddamn years ago. Now we are seeing a curb in spending. But like Fish, based on the past 5 years I am not going to declare that things will stay this way. I must wait and see(and pray). Because the past does not bode well for our future.

Game 45 if Isiah is struggling, he is now coaching to save his career. He is not going to care about Channing or David or Nate or anyone. He will make a move to save his job, thus continuuing the cycle that has plagued us for 5 straight years. I'm praying that we get off to a great start. That players are in camp in shape so that I don't have to experience this nonsense again. And still have to listen to posters telling me that I'm wrong, when I've been right for 5 years.
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islesfan
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9/28/2006  12:19 PM
You think you've been right? After Isiah was hired and especially after the Marbury trade I could have written "All Alone" as my sig. I was the only one to realize how much of a mistake it was to hire Isiah and trade for Marbury.

Finally, after 2 1/2 years, most of you are starting to come over to my side and the Kool-Aid drinkers are either dwindling or moving back to Canada.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bippity10
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9/28/2006  12:31 PM
Posted by islesfan:

You think you've been right? After Isiah was hired and especially after the Marbury trade I could have written "All Alone" as my sig. I was the only one to realize how much of a mistake it was to hire Isiah and trade for Marbury.

Finally, after 2 1/2 years, most of you are starting to come over to my side and the Kool-Aid drinkers are either dwindling or moving back to Canada.

Yes I'm with you. I remember those days. You were definitely a trendsetter. I think Isiah has been pretty bad. LB is the antichrist but noone seems to want to admit that Isiah is the guy that hired the antichrist. Noone wants to face all the players he has had to buy-out. How many more coaches have to be completely humiliated when they leave?? How many more scandals in the paper do we have to endure???? How many more mr Isiah?! How many more???!!!We have been an embarrassment and someone besides the coach has to be held accountable for this.

I still don't think it's all Isiah. I think anyone in the GM spot would do some version of what Isiah has done. Maybe not with the same embarrassing firings and organizational humiliation, but some version of it. They are up against building and saving their jobs. When their jobs are on the line they are forced to point fingers at others to take the pressure off themselves. They are forced to make trades for big names to create buzz to get the pressure off them long enough for them to somehow get back to the plan they just abandoned. The situation here is horrible. But I will admit that Isiah has done a lot more to contribute to this mess than I originally called for.

What we need is to hire a coach/GM(Proven winners!!!!!!! instead of guys that have known no success) give them a 5 year time period to stick to the plans that made them proven winners and then just let them do their thing. Thought that's what we were doing with LB but I was mistaken. Instead I'm afraid we will have to endure Isiah's craziness and hope eventually some of the creaziness works out. Hope instead of build.

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BlueSeats
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9/28/2006  1:07 PM
Posted by oohah:
It's you who hold the double standard. I consider both seasons abominations while you consider a gutless performance under Wilkens and Berb respectable while one just marginally worse under Brown is deemed evil.

The team's performances under Herb and Williams were not gutless. They battled injuries and at least gutted out mediocre performances.

To compare it to LB's 23 game debacle is like comparing a fender-bender to an 8 car pile-up. The 8 car pileup is worse than the fender-bender no matter how you look at it.

39 wins - mediocre

33 wins - bad

Herb Williams 16 - 27 bad.

23 wins - an abominitation

***

Lenny Wilkens - 40-41 Not bad considering what he had to work with and all the upheaval, and that includes the worst month in team history!

Don Chaney - 72 - 112 Bad, but the man had nothing to work with. An admirable job and he handled himself with dignity, though the garden treated him like garbage.

Herb Williams - Took a team that was totally injusred and demoralized, yet he still managed to go .372. At least he was trying!

Larry Brown - 23 -59 - Had so much more to work with than his predecessors, had the red carpet rolled out, dropped his pants and sh!tted on it. An abomination.

If you say LB's is only slightly worse, that is a double standard blue.

oohah


Ooh, I'm not gonna take this much farther. All I can say is we went 17-36 under Larry and herb in '06. That included a stretch of around 2-16 plus a 9 game losing streak. That's under two different coaches. The efforts were so bad many of the devout thought we were tanking for the draft pick. brendan Suhr told us chemistry was a huge problem for us and to address it they drafted Robinson, Lee and Frye. However, we also lost our best veteran leaders.

Then this year it was more of the same, with isiah telling us the same thing: chemistry was a problem which he hopes was addressed with the signing of Jeffries and by buying out veterans who might carp about minutes.

You see radical differences while I simply see a continuum.
oohah
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9/28/2006  1:15 PM
Ooh, I'm not gonna take this much farther. All I can say is we went 17-36 under Larry and herb in '06. That included a stretch of around 2-16 plus a 9 game losing streak. That's under two different coaches. The efforts were so bad many of the devout thought we were tanking for the draft pick. brendan Suhr told us chemistry was a huge problem for us and to address it they drafted Robinson, Lee and Frye. However, we also lost our best veteran leaders.

So under 2 different coaches, with 2 of the worst losing streaks in Knicks history, more injuries, and with less talented personell, Wilkens/Willimas still managed to do measurably better than LB did.
Then this year it was more of the same, with isiah telling us the same thing: chemistry was a problem which he hopes was addressed with the signing of Jeffries and by buying out veterans who might carp about minutes.

Okay.
You see radical differences while I simply see a continuum.

Hardly. I see a spike in the graph that cannot be ignored and it coincided with LB. 23 is not a continuum of 33, 38, 39 wins. It just isn't.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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9/28/2006  1:24 PM
Posted by islesfan:

You think you've been right? After Isiah was hired and especially after the Marbury trade I could have written "All Alone" as my sig. I was the only one to realize how much of a mistake it was to hire Isiah and trade for Marbury.

Finally, after 2 1/2 years, most of you are starting to come over to my side and the Kool-Aid drinkers are either dwindling or moving back to Canada.
I held out hope for Isiah because of his drafting record. I was OK with the Marbury trade although I thought we overpaid. Its a shame that Isiah's trading skills, FA signings and eye for veteran talent is worse than most of the 15 year old kids that post on realGM. I honestly think that if Isiah just used the expiring contracts to move up in the draft, and concentrated on building the team that way RIGHT NOW we would be talking about how solid our young team is, yada yada yada.
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9/28/2006  1:26 PM
Look who cares about the past anymore. Do you LIKE this team? Do you LIKE the solid young players we've added. Then you have to be happy if we do get rid of Mo and make things easier for our young players to get PT. We still have to clear roster a bit more, but this is a good start. This team is headed in the RIGHT DIRECTION.

Some of you guys bash Isiah but last year he added 3 rookies who had good talent and character and this year he added 3 more players who fill the role player needs of the team. He got us a Center who may yet reach his potential and tho there's no guarantee at least he's trying to improve this team and give it a chance to one day be a contender. It's only been 2 full seasons with Isiah and I think you're gonna see that he actually did a good job with this team, DESPITE the win/loss record. You'll see that this year. We're gonna make up for lost time last year. You'll see that it was all worth it.
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9/28/2006  1:45 PM
Posted by nixluva:

Look who cares about the past anymore. Do you LIKE this team? Do you LIKE the solid young players we've added. Then you have to be happy if we do get rid of Mo and make things easier for our young players to get PT. We still have to clear roster a bit more, but this is a good start. This team is headed in the RIGHT DIRECTION.

Some of you guys bash Isiah but last year he added 3 rookies who had good talent and character and this year he added 3 more players who fill the role player needs of the team. He got us a Center who may yet reach his potential and tho there's no guarantee at least he's trying to improve this team and give it a chance to one day be a contender. It's only been 2 full seasons with Isiah and I think you're gonna see that he actually did a good job with this team, DESPITE the win/loss record. You'll see that this year. We're gonna make up for lost time last year. You'll see that it was all worth it.


Amazing pictures of the knicks press conference about Larry Brown!

Click here: http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/happyand.htm

[Edited by - nalod on 09-28-2006 2:11 PM]
BlueSeats
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9/28/2006  1:45 PM
Posted by oohah:
Ooh, I'm not gonna take this much farther. All I can say is we went 17-36 under Larry and herb in '06. That included a stretch of around 2-16 plus a 9 game losing streak. That's under two different coaches. The efforts were so bad many of the devout thought we were tanking for the draft pick. brendan Suhr told us chemistry was a huge problem for us and to address it they drafted Robinson, Lee and Frye. However, we also lost our best veteran leaders.

So under 2 different coaches, with 2 of the worst losing streaks in Knicks history, more injuries, and with less talented personell, Wilkens/Willimas still managed to do measurably better than LB did.

As I explained, they didn't do measurably better from the point in the season when chemistry hit the fan. And I'd argue that the injuries where less significant than those under LB, and that LB had the less talented roster.

If you're going head to head for one season who would you rather have:

Houston, Sweeteny, TT, Nazr, and Kurt

or last years'

Curry, Snacks, Q, Nate, Lee and Frye.

A year or two out one might say the 2nd group, no problem. But last year too many of those guys were poorly conditioned or just too green.

You see radical differences while I simply see a continuum.

Hardly. I see a spike in the graph that cannot be ignored and it coincided with LB. 23 is not a continuum of 33, 38, 39 wins. It just isn't.

So you don't see a 16-13 start with a 17-36 finish as a tale of two seasons?

How about you start from the point when Houston, our best player, was beyond done and when our not to be denied chemistry issues take hold. From then on we go from a 26 win pace to a 23 win pace.



[Edited by - blueSeats on 09-28-2006 1:48 PM]
nyk4ever
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9/28/2006  4:45 PM
Great to see the reactions in this thread. The double-standard rules.
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gunsnewing
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9/28/2006  5:45 PM
this post put a smile on my face.. good stuff!
oohah
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9/28/2006  5:53 PM
As I explained, they didn't do measurably better from the point in the season when chemistry hit the fan. And I'd argue that the injuries where less significant than those under LB, and that LB had the less talented roster.

If you're going head to head for one season who would you rather have:

Houston, Sweeteny, TT, Nazr, and Kurt

or last years'

Curry, Snacks, Q, Nate, Lee and Frye.

A year or two out one might say the 2nd group, no problem. But last year too many of those guys were poorly conditioned or just too green.

Last year's injuries were more siginficant than the Jamal Crawford and Nazr going down and forcing Houston to return and play virtually on crutches in the meantime? With KT playing with his finger falling off his hand?

Last year Curry had an injury stretch, but by the time Stephon Marbury was injured the season was over. When Frye got injuerd the season was over times 2.

But maybe that can be debated with a straight face.

But seriously, you would argue that LB had less talent?

C'mon blue!
So you don't see a 16-13 start with a 17-36 finish as a tale of two seasons?

It is a tale of 2 season, but it was one season.
How about you start from the point when Houston, our best player, was beyond done and when our not to be denied chemistry issues take hold. From then on we go from a 26 win pace to a 23 win pace.

I hate to say it, but Houston was beyond done before that season began. It still makes me wince when I think about how he runs--because I seee myself running at the same time.

Anyway, I gotta run, my girl is killing me in the figurative sense.

Later,

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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9/28/2006  5:58 PM
Man, just waite sill the season starts, the team sucks real bad and IT is exposed for the fraud that he is. This discussion is pointless. The season will settle all scores.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
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9/29/2006  12:16 AM
Posted by oohah:
As I explained, they didn't do measurably better from the point in the season when chemistry hit the fan. And I'd argue that the injuries where less significant than those under LB, and that LB had the less talented roster.

If you're going head to head for one season who would you rather have:

Houston, Sweeteny, TT, Nazr, and Kurt

or last years'

Curry, Snacks, Q, Nate, Lee and Frye.

A year or two out one might say the 2nd group, no problem. But last year too many of those guys were poorly conditioned or just too green.

Last year's injuries were more siginficant than the Jamal Crawford and Nazr going down and forcing Houston to return and play virtually on crutches in the meantime? With KT playing with his finger falling off his hand?

Crawford only missed 6 games. Nazr had a hammy injury that he technically could play on, but he was replaced by malik Rose, a player isiah said he thought was better player than Nazr. And Nazr went on to play a pretty large role in San Antonio's championship run. Kurt's finger issue was the year prior. Kurt was very solid and healthy for 05-06.
Last year Curry had an injury stretch, but by the time Stephon Marbury was injured the season was over. When Frye got injuerd the season was over times 2.

But maybe that can be debated with a straight face.

Now you are making my point. Major injuries to Frye and Marbury - arguably our two best players. Richardson's back was shot all season, plus that leg (shin, ankle, hammy?) business to start the year. Curry was oft injured and always unfit. Ditto Big Snacks. Plus AD, our starting PF, got suspended and traded.

Plus the distractions of Anucha-gate and Marbury taking on Brown... Oy!
But seriously, you would argue that LB had less talent?

C'mon blue!

Less veteran talent. Absolutely! Nazr was a working center, something we never had last year. And Kurt was our best player as far as I'm concerned. I know the Marbury fans will go nuts to hear that, but he was our best shooter, best defender and best leader. Our only two-way player. A very reliable player. I'm not crying that we traded him, cause at 32-33 his days are numbered, but at that point in time he was our glue. We had NO glue last year.

And Sweets was serviceable to prolific in stretches. And as bad as TT was, he was better in his awful year than QR was in his.

However, I'm also not really acknowledging Francis and Rose who came after the bottom fell out and never fit in. I almost forget they were here. You can cal them "talent" but last year they were little more than another poodle jumping thru a "circus" hoop.
So you don't see a 16-13 start with a 17-36 finish as a tale of two seasons?

It is a tale of 2 season, but it was one season.

My argument is that last season was a continuation of the 2nd part of the prior season. A rudderless team without leadership, passion or chemistry.
How about you start from the point when Houston, our best player, was beyond done and when our not to be denied chemistry issues take hold. From then on we go from a 26 win pace to a 23 win pace.

I hate to say it, but Houston was beyond done before that season began. It still makes me wince when I think about how he runs--because I seee myself running at the same time.

Ouch, right, I forgot about your whole knee thing. How's that doing?

Anyway, Houston was pretty much done, but still he gave us 20 games of 12pts in 26 minutes. Points wise that's basically what Frye gave us last year. So if you wanna count Frye as talent in '06 I think you've gotta count Houston as talent in '05.
Rich
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9/29/2006  12:23 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/42374/20060928/mo_taylor_wants_buyout_says_larry_wasnt_to_blame/
New York Post - Mo Taylor, hoping to have his contract bought out before training camp opens Monday, told The Post the Knicks' mismatched roster was cause for their 23-59 demise, not the head coach. And Taylor isn't sure Isiah Thomas did enough in the summer to lift the club into the playoffs.

"First and foremost, we're a bad team," said Taylor, who arrived into New York yesterday from his home in Houston. "Let's get that out of the way first. It's not all of a sudden we weren't winning. How did Don Chaney do? How did Lenny Wilkens do? How did Herb Williams do? It's not like we were just bad lately. So I don't look at it as Larry failing miserably.

"The most surprising part is they fired him with so many years left on his contract," Taylor said. "And he's also a Hall of Fame coach."

It's a meaningless, self-serving statement that he made because he is trying to cut his ties, but he still wants his money. It's classless.



[Edited by - Rich on 09-29-2006 12:23 AM]
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