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how many games would a team like this win?
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nyk4ever
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9/28/2006  6:13 PM
A team like this should win 23 games, oh wait they accomplished that last year.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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crzymdups
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9/28/2006  6:53 PM
where did I predict 35 wins?
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crzymdups
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9/28/2006  7:06 PM
my take - if the young talent is still at the back end of the rotation, we'll stink. If we can depend on Frye, Curry, Lee, Jefferies and Balkman to take up most of the minutes in the front court, we'll be fine.

I don't see how pointing out that Larry Brown did a horrible job last means this team should win 50 games. I think best case scenario with Frye being a rookie and Curry coming off his crazy heart media thing in Chicago would have been 40-42 wins. My beef with Larry didn't come from failure to meet expectations, though of course that hurt too, but it came from watching how he handled the team both on the court and with his comments in the media. He stank.

You complain about Francis. Brown asked for him. We have found the quote where he says "he bugged Isiah to get him when he heard he was available" - he also assassinated Ariza in the media and buried him on the bench. Would I rather have Ariza than Francis? Yes. I blame Brown for that. Sure, Isiah pullled the trigger, but he every indication is that he was trying to work with Brown. He got Brown Jalen. He got Brown Francis. He even went out and got Jefferies and Balkman this summer - two guys Brown liked.

As I've said before, I don't think Isiah wanted Brown gone. Think about it. Would Isiah really want the bullseye firmly on his back this season? No. I think that decision was Dolan all the way. A lot of folks around here seem to pin the Brown thing on Isiah when every indication points to it being Dolan. I didn't see a single instance where Isiah screwed with Brown last season. Of course, I saw MANY where Brown screwed with Isiah. And yet people act like Isiah treated Brown poorly. It was vice versa people.

Dolan decided to give Isiah one last chance and he kicked Brown to the curb. Get over it. Move on. Look at Nate's quote from today's paper - the team is happy and ready to move on.
http://www.nj.com/knicks/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1159419774210130.xml&coll=1

You want a prediction? Fine - Isiah gets the team above .500 heading into the all-star break, prompting Dolan to open the purse strings and allow Isiah to make a big money deal with Jalen's expiring contract. What the deal will be, I don't know. How it impacts the rest of the season - I don't know. But as long as we are building around the kids and they are improving, I will be mostly happy. Mo Taylor can go away as soon as possible. That guy is a finger-pointing cancer. I wish he would take Francis with him. Brown, Mo and Francis were Isiah's three worst moves.
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fishmike
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9/28/2006  7:06 PM
Posted by arkrud:

The TALENT issue is coming over and over again.
The SUCCESS in any individual sport is coming when TALENT is coming together with HARD WORK
An in team sport this also should be backed up by COMRADERY, PASSION, and GREAT COUCHING to make any team successful.

The TALENT is the gift of god and it is frustrating to see how it is wasted in Knicks organization in unbelievable proportions.

Dolan, IT, and company have enough money to buy the best TALENT and even GREAT COUCHING, but some things you cannot buy for any money in the world. You need to build GREATNESS and earn it.
They have no idea how to build greatness and frankly they are not deserve it.
People like Dolan, Mills, and IT will never bring GREAT players like KG, Nesh, Dunkin, Shaq, Dirk in NY.
You cannot have Lions and Monkeys in the teh team. So we have just monkeys.



to me that drive has to be part of what one considers talent. Ability alone is as usefull as a poopy flavored lolly pop. If Curry flounders his whole career and is never anything but a foul prone dunker who's got more talent at the end of the day? The #2 talent touted Curry or the undrafted, self made through hard work Ben Wallace?

crzy.. how many wins? Not a prediction, rather a thought.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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9/28/2006  7:30 PM
I gave my thoughts. Here's another: Thomas is the best FIT at head coach that we've had since Van Gundy left. If you feel like looking up I said last summer that Brown was a bad fit for this group. I don't think Wilkens or Chaney were good fits either. I think Isiah is a good fit. But I'm just happy that we don't have to speculate for too much longer.
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TheGame
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9/28/2006  8:08 PM
People are willing to accept less the 50 wins from our 50-win talent, because we recognize that it is going to take time for this team to build itself up. You can have all the talent in the world, but until you build chemistry and team identity, your team is going to struggle. Thus, while I do think this team has 50 win potential, I predict the team will win 39-44 games this year. My primary goals for this team this year is to build chemistry, a team identity, and make the playoffs, which I think would be good for these young players. It does not matter how many wins it takes to get there, but if IT gets this team to the playoffs and they can compete in the first round without embarassing themselves, I could not ask much more from them this 1st year (and yes I say 1st year because in my mind this is an entirely new team in which the young players (fyre, Lee, Nate, and Curry) start to take on larger roles).
Trust the Process
crzymdups
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9/28/2006  10:50 PM
a better question to ask is look at last year's team and tell me what kind of coach wouldn't be able to settle on a rotation or think about trying zone defense or think about running more pick and rolls on offense? answer - a horrible one.

I can't believe the idea that people look at this group and say its talented, but has horrible chemistry issues and not realize how much a coach has to do with creating chemistry through smart set lineups and giving guys roles they can understand and fill.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 28-09-2006 10:50 PM]
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BlueSeats
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9/28/2006  11:36 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

a better question to ask is look at last year's team and tell me what kind of coach wouldn't be able to settle on a rotation or think about trying zone defense or think about running more pick and rolls on offense? answer - a horrible one.

I can't believe the idea that people look at this group and say its talented, but has horrible chemistry issues and not realize how much a coach has to do with creating chemistry through smart set lineups and giving guys roles they can understand and fill.

It's not that unusual.

Rick Carlisle ran ~35 lineups with Indy last year and is still their coach.

This was in the papers just yesterday about Doc rivers and Boston:

So if players must give up the sprinkles on their sundae -- or the entire sundae -- Rivers would love it, especially if it helps him settle on a core to lead a young team with just four of its current 17 players older than 24.

He began last year knowing that just one player, Paul Pierce, would be part of that core. The group didn't get much larger as the season progressed because few players were markedly better than others at their positions.

He never settled on a regular rotation.

"I don't think we ever had one and I don't think we were a team that should have had one. No one separated themselves enough to have one," Rivers said. "I do think there will be separation this year where last year I don't think I ever made that statement."

And one of the main criticisms of isiah as coach of Indy was his inability to settle on a rotation. Bird starts off Speaking about how he thinks Carlisle will add freshness after Isiah, and hope he can coach the game the way he likes it to be played - an apparent insinuation that Isiah could not. He then goes on to insinuate that chemistry was not good under Isiah.

"I think a new coach coming in is going to bring some freshness, a new style and hopefully he can play the game the way I like it to be played," Bird said.

Bird said the new coach would likely bring in his own assistants.

The biggest criticism of Thomas was his inconsistent rotations. While most players preferred a set role, Thomas made his decisions on his own feelings for a particular game and team matchups.

Thomas, who led Indiana to the 1981 NCAA championship, retired as a player after the 1994 season, averaging 19.2 points and 9.3 assists over his 13-year NBA career, all with the Pistons. He won NBA titles in 1989 and 1990.

He then became vice president and part-owner of the Toronto Raptors and later worked as an NBC analyst on NBA games before joining the Pacers.

"Now we have to look at our team and see if we have the chemistry on the team that can win together and work together," Bird said. "This is just starting."

oohah
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9/28/2006  11:43 PM
Thinking Frye is "threatening" to be an all star is kool aid material. Be happy he's a promising young player. To bad he's set up to fail here.

No, saying that Mike Sweetney will average 18/12 and 3 blocks is koolaid material, except you have to be mainlining it to think that sweetney is that good.

Saying that Frye can threaten to make the all-star team is just recognizing that he has a very nice skillset to go along with a good nba body, a smart game, and he is a hard worker.

Frye already stepped up and was the straight up best player on the court in a bunch of games as a rookie.

Just watch what happens. I hope you will admit you were wrong.

That's all I hope.

oohah


Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
islesfan
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9/29/2006  12:00 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:

And one of the main criticisms of isiah as coach of Indy was his inability to settle on a rotation.

The biggest criticism of Thomas was his inconsistent rotations. While most players preferred a set role, Thomas made his decisions on his own feelings for a particular game and team matchups.

LMAO
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
nyk4ever
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9/29/2006  12:45 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:



The biggest criticism of Thomas was his inconsistent rotations. While most players preferred a set role, Thomas made his decisions on his own feelings for a particular game and team matchups.

So whats the excuse when he does this next year for OUR Knicks, Pro Isiah-ites? Is he going to get to crucified and eventually fired for using too many lineups?
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
crzymdups
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9/29/2006  1:56 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by BlueSeats:



The biggest criticism of Thomas was his inconsistent rotations. While most players preferred a set role, Thomas made his decisions on his own feelings for a particular game and team matchups.

So whats the excuse when he does this next year for OUR Knicks, Pro Isiah-ites? Is he going to get to crucified and eventually fired for using too many lineups?

I would be surprised if Isiah did that here when it was so obviously the problem last year. If he does, I will eat a healthy serving of crow. There's obviously various degrees of doing this and also ways to make the players understand the decision. I think most of us can agree that Brown did not explain his decisions to the players and many times the decisions seems to contradict on the court performance (aka Frye's minutes going down throughout the year, etc). Brown handled it horribly and players from Frye, Lee, Ariza, Nate, Crawford, Francis, Marbury, Malik, Mo Taylor have all said so at various times either during the season or after the season. I think Isiah will handle it better IF he does switch the lineups around, but I'm hoping he'll settle on a lineup to go to work with.
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Bippity10
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9/29/2006  2:01 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by BlueSeats:



The biggest criticism of Thomas was his inconsistent rotations. While most players preferred a set role, Thomas made his decisions on his own feelings for a particular game and team matchups.

So whats the excuse when he does this next year for OUR Knicks, Pro Isiah-ites? Is he going to get to crucified and eventually fired for using too many lineups?

I would be surprised if Isiah did that here when it was so obviously the problem last year. If he does, I will eat a healthy serving of crow. There's obviously various degrees of doing this and also ways to make the players understand the decision. I think most of us can agree that Brown did not explain his decisions to the players and many times the decisions seems to contradict on the court performance (aka Frye's minutes going down throughout the year, etc). Brown handled it horribly and players from Frye, Lee, Ariza, Nate, Crawford, Francis, Marbury, Malik, Mo Taylor have all said so at various times either during the season or after the season. I think Isiah will handle it better IF he does switch the lineups around, but I'm hoping he'll settle on a lineup to go to work with.

I agree that I hope that Isiah settles on a rotation and sticks with it. after last year I think he will be almost forced to. But we all have to remember that he is coach and what coach says goes. If he feels that player y is a better fit than player x on a given day then that player has to suck it up and deal with it. And when their time comes we cannot allow them to use any benchings as an excuse. They must perform when they are called upon.

Looking at our roster we have 12 guys that can legitimately ask for playing time. Only 8 or so will have consistent time. Two will sit. and at least two will get inconsistent minutes even if Zeke does stick with a set rotation. We have to hope that our players accept this fact and deal with it like men. I said that regardless of our feelings for Brown, giving support to players that did not play hard on the court because of inconsistent minutes was a dangerous thing. It set a precedent. We just have to hope that Isiah can manage them well enough where this doesn't crop up again.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 09-29-2006 2:02 PM]
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