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Brown bolts to Philly- Kinda kills one of the arguments LB lovers use.
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oohah
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9/26/2006  4:47 PM
Killa--forget it. Any pro-Brown argument has been trampled, burned, and buried.

What it comes down to is this: Many of these guys just don't think that the rules apply to Brown.

It is terrible for Marbury to be subordinate, but it's okay for Brown.
Everybody else must treat Brown with respect, but he does to have to treat anyone else with respect.
He does not have to try to win games, but you better play your heart out for him while he disrespects you.
You better be consistent, but Brown does not have to be.

And so on.

You could get a videotape of him saying that it was his goal to sh!t on the Knicks, and there will be dudes around here who will tell you why that is okay.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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nyk4ever
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9/26/2006  4:50 PM
Posted by oohah:

Killa--forget it. Any pro-Brown argument has been trampled, burned, and buried.

What it comes down to is this: Many of these guys just don't think that the rules apply to Brown.

It is terrible for Marbury to be subordinate, but it's okay for Brown.
Everybody else must treat Brown with respect, but he does to have to treat anyone else with respect.
He does not have to try to win games, but you better play your heart out for him while he disrespects you.
You better be consistent, but Brown does not have to be.

And so on.

You could get a videotape of him saying that it was his goal to sh!t on the Knicks, and there will be dudes around here who will tell you why that is okay.

oohah

You could say the same exact thing about the people who dislike Brown. It's called O-P-I-N-I-O-N.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
oohah
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9/26/2006  4:57 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by oohah:

Killa--forget it. Any pro-Brown argument has been trampled, burned, and buried.

What it comes down to is this: Many of these guys just don't think that the rules apply to Brown.

It is terrible for Marbury to be subordinate, but it's okay for Brown.
Everybody else must treat Brown with respect, but he does to have to treat anyone else with respect.
He does not have to try to win games, but you better play your heart out for him while he disrespects you.
You better be consistent, but Brown does not have to be.

And so on.

You could get a videotape of him saying that it was his goal to sh!t on the Knicks, and there will be dudes around here who will tell you why that is okay.

oohah

You could say the same exact thing about the people who dislike Brown. It's called O-P-I-N-I-O-N.



There is also a thing called right and wrong. Yes, we all are expressing opinions, but if you provided me with incontrivertible evidence that Brown did a wonderful job and everybody else was a schmuck, my opinion might change.

It's very obvious that LB did everything but coach the damn team last year. As the evidence mounts from people who were actually dealing with him, I would say the evidence is I-N-C-O-N-T-R-I-V-E-R-T-I-B-L-E, that he was the biggest problem with the team last season.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
eViL
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9/26/2006  5:10 PM
Posted by oohah:

There is also a thing called right and wrong.

And you're wrong.

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SugarRayRichardson
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9/26/2006  5:11 PM
I'm not an LB fan at all but all this proves is that he and his wife were willing to put their kids schooling over possibly losing money buying and selling a house in a short time.
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
oohah
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9/26/2006  5:13 PM
Posted by eViL:
Posted by oohah:

There is also a thing called right and wrong.

And you're wrong.



And you are right, Brown did a wonderful job!!! Now can you pass me whatever you are huffing?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
KNICKSdom
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9/26/2006  5:49 PM
Oh geeez. This is news? Larry Brown is history and not surprising he would go back to one of his old digs. He is rich and can do whatever he wants. Dolan is just a nicompoop. He did that to himself and the knicks organization by giving Larry that huge contract in the first place. Where was the commitment? You gotta face the consequences for your own idiocy.
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Masterplan
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9/26/2006  6:08 PM
Yes, we all are expressing opinions, but if you provided me with incontrivertible evidence that Brown did a wonderful job and everybody else was a schmuck, my opinion might change.

do you have incontrovertible proof that everyone else on the knicks did a wonderful job? no one can argue that LB did a great job; i would just extend the blame to players who lived up to selfish, me-first, cancerous reputations all season.

unless you can fulfill your ridiculous burden of proof for other knicks on the hot seat- marbury, IT, dolan- any other opinion is as legitimate as yours. IMO.
oohah
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9/26/2006  6:20 PM
do you have incontrovertible proof that everyone else on the knicks did a wonderful job? no one can argue that LB did a great job; i would just extend the blame to players who lived up to selfish, me-first, cancerous reputations all season.

unless you can fulfill your ridiculous burden of proof for other knicks on the hot seat- marbury, IT, dolan- any other opinion is as legitimate as yours. IMO.

I never said ANYONE did a wonderful job. One can theorize that the biggest problem was not Brown, but it takes so much sophisticated twisting of logic, that is violates the rule of "Occam's razor", explained:

"the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating, or "shaving off," those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. In short, when given two equally valid explanations for a phenomenon, one should embrace the less complicated formulation. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae (law of succinctness):"

Of course the validity of the Brown defense relies almost exclusively on his history before the Knicks, so I would not even say it is "equally valid".

The burden of proof to indict LB is not ridiculous; it's ridiculously obvious. Do you extend the Blame to Malik Rose? Channing Frye? David Lee? Antonio Davis? Those are some of Brown's biggest critics. Are they the me-first players you described?

Yes, they are all idiots, Brown does not make mistakes! Strangely enough every one of those players were described as being on the Brown side during the season.

I have fulfilled this burden of proof so many times over my fingers hurt. Why don't you step up and fullfill yours with actual examples rather than generalities?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
BlueSeats
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9/26/2006  6:41 PM
Posted by oohah:
Do you extend the Blame to Malik Rose? Channing Frye? David Lee? Antonio Davis? Those are some of Brown's biggest critics.


I don't remember that at all. Who said what?
Silverfuel
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9/26/2006  6:45 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by oohah:
Do you extend the Blame to Malik Rose? Channing Frye? David Lee? Antonio Davis? Those are some of Brown's biggest critics.


I don't remember that at all. Who said what?
there is a quote on the front page of ultimateknicks.com in bold letters:

“If I told you to do something different every day at the newspaper or the TV station, how would it work out? But that was his coaching style and he made the decisions he made, and our record showed it.”
- Channing Frye
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
fishmike
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9/26/2006  6:48 PM
I dont like Brown, never did, but he's the only one in the organization that had ever demonstrated an ounce of success at his job. So while Brown clearly failed at his job last year there was a large amount of history that spoke of great success, in a variety of circumstances.

Now that Brown is gone there's a different kind of history here.

Now if that makes you feel uncomfortable you just translate what I just wrote into:
Larry can do no wrong
Larry is great
Nothing is Larry's fault

The real problem was hiring him in the first place. They bit off more than they could chew. Remember when Lenny had Marbury, Kurt, Doleac, KVH, Shandon, etc playing well and heading into the playoffs? Isiah asked about a trade and Lenny said "please dont trade KVH and Doleac... I have them playing well." So Isiah makes the trade, the team limps into the playoffs in a division where a 37 game winner is the 8th seed. Next season they fire Lenny's assistant and he quits shortly there after saying it was the worse place he ever worked.

Don said the same thing

LB said the same thing

Herb needs a job

oohah... whats your burden of proof? That LB did a bad job? Has anyone ever denied that here?

This is about whats wrong, and whats BEEN wrong with this team. If you think it was LB and his departure fixes everything, well prove that.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BlueSeats
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9/26/2006  6:53 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by oohah:
Do you extend the Blame to Malik Rose? Channing Frye? David Lee? Antonio Davis? Those are some of Brown's biggest critics.


I don't remember that at all. Who said what?
there is a quote on the front page of ultimateknicks.com in bold letters:

“If I told you to do something different every day at the newspaper or the TV station, how would it work out? But that was his coaching style and he made the decisions he made, and our record showed it.”
- Channing Frye

Okay, that's one. What did Lee, Malik and AD say?
Masterplan
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9/26/2006  6:58 PM
oohah:

so all you're saying is that brown was the biggest problem? OK.

i'm not saying he didn't mishandle an entire season and set our franchise a year back. in hindsight, he did. at the time, i was crossing my fingers hoping his tactics would get results out of the players. i was severely disappointed in him. i haven't seen anything in the news or on this board to prove whether it was simple incompatibility with the roster or a malicious power play. if you believe you have proven the latter to be the case, then i won't ask you to repeat yourself. if you're (still) asking me to "prove" LB did a good job, it's not what i'm interested in saying at all.

i'm saying we are still left with a flawed roster with players who have huge question marks and a GM in whom i have totally lost faith (since the j. rose and francis moves). marbury, francis, jalen, and to a lesser extent jerome eddy and mo, concern me. i think the other guys like the ones you mentioned will be good employees/teammates during the season but won't necessarily be so kind if/when any of those characters get the boot. kind of like when amare and marion spoke up after that PG left i forget his name but i think he was bald and may have had a 'stache. or maybe it was a shoe print from putting his foot in his mouth.

oohah if i remember your wins prediction for this year it was around 40 wins, like 38+? i think that number must reflect some lack of faith in something in our current team (i.e. not LB). unless it's jeffries, it must be something that was there last year. did that have anything to do with our lack of success? if so, then we're not really arguing.

[Edited by - Masterplan on 09-26-2006 7:10 PM]
fishmike
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9/26/2006  7:03 PM
38-40 wins is pretty lofty for a team run by a couple of all star guards and $100mm in complimentary players. Not to mention a nice bench of touted young players matched by few other teams around the league.

Wow... lofty indeed.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
oohah
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9/26/2006  7:36 PM
Posted by Masterplan:

oohah:

so all you're saying is that brown was the biggest problem? OK.

i'm not saying he didn't mishandle an entire season and set our franchise a year back. in hindsight, he did. at the time, i was crossing my fingers hoping his tactics would get results out of the players. i was severely disappointed in him. i haven't seen anything in the news or on this board to prove whether it was simple incompatibility with the roster or a malicious power play. if you believe you have proven the latter to be the case, then i won't ask you to repeat yourself. if you're (still) asking me to "prove" LB did a good job, it's not what i'm interested in saying at all.

i'm saying we are still left with a flawed roster with players who have huge question marks and a GM in whom i have totally lost faith (since the j. rose and francis moves). marbury, francis, jalen, and to a lesser extent jerome eddy and mo, concern me. i think the other guys like the ones you mentioned will be good employees/teammates during the season but won't necessarily be so kind if/when any of those characters get the boot. kind of like when amare and marion spoke up after that PG left i forget his name but i think he was bald and may have had a 'stache. or maybe it was a shoe print from putting his foot in his mouth.

oohah if i remember your wins prediction for this year it was around 40 wins, like 38+? i think that number must reflect some lack of faith in something in our current team (i.e. not LB). unless it's jeffries, it must be something that was there last year. did that have anything to do with our lack of success? if so, then we're not really arguing.

[Edited by - Masterplan on 09-26-2006 7:10 PM]
t
I've gone through this so many times.... The team was/is mediocre, That is what we have to work with. That is on them and Isiah. If the coach makes them better than mediocre he doing good. If he makes them worse than mediocre that's is (mostly) on the coach. Going from 33 (mediocre) to terrible is mostly on LB.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
nixluva
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9/26/2006  7:39 PM
Posted by fishmike:

38-40 wins is pretty lofty for a team run by a couple of all star guards and $100mm in complimentary players. Not to mention a nice bench of touted young players matched by few other teams around the league.

Wow... lofty indeed.

I'm expecting more like 42-46 wins! I think that its a young team and a mostly new roster. 11 of the players on this team have been here for one season or less. How about we give this group a little slack. They'll improve but for this team to reach its full potential is gonna take time. Its not gonna happen all in one season. Why do they have to do it and no other team is held to that high a standard? I just want this team to succeed so all of you guys can stop bitching about Isiah. LB is the main reason things didn't go well last year and there's AMPLE PROOF that he did a HORRIBLE JOB! End of argument on that. WHY, cuz no single individual did more to destroy any chance this team had of developing chemistry. That's all on LB. There's no need to rehash ever single thing he did wrong. The list is too long.
oohah
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9/26/2006  7:40 PM

Okay, that's one. What did Lee, Malik and AD say?

Sorry, I am not at my base computer and I don't have time to search and quote, so I will have to paraphrase.

Rose: It's kind of hard here. In SA, we knew what our roles were, but we do not this year.

Lee: I was surprised that I was starting and doing well, then I was benched, etc.

AD: They gotta figure out the game plan. Young or Old? Fast or Slow? Decide godammit!

oohah


Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
joec32033
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9/26/2006  7:42 PM


Now we are judging LB because he moved his family back to Philly so his kids could go to their favorite school?

Is it at all possible LB can do something without having an underlying agenda?(oh boy, I know where this is gonna lead.....)
~You can't run from who you are.~
oohah
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9/26/2006  7:44 PM
oohah... whats your burden of proof? That LB did a bad job? Has anyone ever denied that here?

Omigod yes many have said that including yourself. During the season you and I had countless arguments where you defended specific moves by LB and told me why they were good, right up until the last few games of the season.

It was not until the season was nearly over until many, yourself included finally had to admit how bad he was.

What is the proof that meets the burden? Your 2005-2006 New York Knicks!

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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Brown bolts to Philly- Kinda kills one of the arguments LB lovers use.
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