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I will be happy if Jeffries averages 7 points.
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crzymdups
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8/8/2006  10:26 PM
Posted by Marv:

it's not just about jeffries. it's the whole picture. what did you think would happen when we got tthomas? crawford? qrich? curry? jalen? francis? did you say all tlhe same things then that you're saying now about jeffries? not seeing any pattern here?

Marv - it's been about adding young pieces while not being allowed to tank by Dolan. Crawford was the first piece. (Ariza came next before he went off alone in the horror movie that was Larry Brown - RIP, trev). Frye, Lee, Nate came next. Then Curry. Then Balkman and Collins. Then Jeffries. That's 8 talented, young players since August 2004. 8 young players in exactly two years. They compliment each other, they're long, athletic and smart. Seriously, do you not see a plan there?
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martin
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8/8/2006  10:34 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Marv:

it's not just about jeffries. it's the whole picture. what did you think would happen when we got tthomas? crawford? qrich? curry? jalen? francis? did you say all tlhe same things then that you're saying now about jeffries? not seeing any pattern here?

Marv - it's been about adding young pieces while not being allowed to tank by Dolan. Crawford was the first piece. (Ariza came next before he went off alone in the horror movie that was Larry Brown - RIP, trev). Frye, Lee, Nate came next. Then Curry. Then Balkman and Collins. Then Jeffries. That's 8 talented, young players since August 2004. 8 young players in exactly two years. They compliment each other, they're long, athletic and smart. Seriously, do you not see a plan there?

The plan has been confusing because in the same time period Jerome James, Jalen Rose, Stevie Francis, MoT, Malik have also stopped in.

The team has gotten younger and more athletic. Smarter? Don't know about that. That's BB IQ, right? There may not be such a thing so you had better stay away from that discussion. Same with athletic, that's not very measureable and no real concrete test for it. Younger we can verify, so it's safe to discuss.
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martin
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8/8/2006  10:36 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

the consistent criticism has been that there's no plan, the plan is always changing, etc, etc. I'm just saying, Isiah has still not been here for three full years yet and we have three 23-24yr-old 6'11" lotto picks who have established themselves in the league as starters in our front court.

For real? JJ2 may be "established" but who are the other 2?
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JUNKMEIN
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8/8/2006  10:38 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by JUNKMEIN:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by misterearl:

"You can plug in 15 (points) and 8 (rebounds) and it may not work. And you can plug in four and six and it works. Don't ask me why. That's chemistry."

your students' grades in chemistry class should determine your tenure status. but it appears that you have dean dolan in your pocket so you're getting a pass either way.

as opposed to Larry, who was getting a pass based on reputation?

can someone tell me what in the world is wrong with a front line of:

C - Curry 6'11" - 23yrs/ 4th pick overall 2001
PF - Frye 6'11" - 23yrs/ 8th pick overall 2005
SF - Jefferies 6'11" - 24yrs/ 11th pick overall 2002

is the rebuilding still a sham? is it still a lie? or are we much younger, bigger, more athletic than when Layden was running this team into the ground? is there still no plan? or does that front court not only make sense together, but create exciting possibilities? do those players not compliment each other? or do they consist of one of the true post up centers in the league, one of the best shooting big men in the league and a hustling, defensive SF who can cover 4 positions and handle the ball? oh, yeah, I forget, coming off the bench are 6'9" David Lee and 6'8" Renaldo Balkman, both of whom can rebound, defend, run the break, pass and finish. that young, huge front court is complimented by some of the best penetration guards in the league. I'm sorry - what's the problem?

If you say 23 wins last year, I agree. But we both know the answer to that is Isiah's actual big mistake - hiring Larry Brown. Otherwise, we have a young, versatile, exciting lineup.

yeah maybe. but hasn't that been the deal every year with isiah? have any of his maybe's worked out yet? what are you basing your faith that they're going tok work out this year on? maybe all that money could have been spent on a franchise player. who would have given the team identity. and then all the young promising players could have been placed around him. what is this team built on and where is it going?

Man, I haven't posted here in like two weeks. I come back and signing Jared Jeffires is being knocked. Geezus, i've never been in the midst of such a vocal amount of whiners in my life. I mean it's like the kid that was put int he closet whenever his parents wanted to punish him. Gentlemen, Get an Effing Grip.

Knock the Marbury signing, cool. Knock the Malik signing, cool. Take issue with the LB firing (I don't), fine. Knock the Snacks sigining, oh most definitely. Hell I can even agree with holding out on the jury with the Curry signing.

But Jared Jeffires for the flipping MLE. Please.

Stop yer Whinning. Geez, Louise

[Edited by - Junkmein on 08-08-2006 10:11 PM]

it's not just about jeffries. it's the whole picture. what did you think would happen when we got tthomas? crawford? qrich? curry? jalen? francis? did you say all tlhe same things then that you're saying now about jeffries? not seeing any pattern here?

The pattern I see is representative of NY City in general. Everything is blown completely out of proportion. I didn't have issue with Tim Thomas when he was signed but when he started stinking it up the following year his nickname got changed to Tiny Tim

Crawford I have no problem with because he's signed to a reasonable amount and last year he showed that he could fit the bill. This is a critical year for him.

QRich brought us Nate along with him so I have no problem with that...and for KT (who I respect but was way overated imo).

Curry i'm hoping makes the trade meaningful for us in a longterm kind of way this year.

Jalen is expiring and brought us a pick (I think). Francis, I think was a really bad move and was the begining of the end of the Isiah-LB relationship.

The LB signing to my surprise did not turn out like I thought it would. I've written on this site how after it was clear LB wasn't gonna let these kids run that I thought Isiah made his most critical mistake when he signed him.

Critical for Jared Jeffries signing. Pure OD Bullsh!t

The pattern I see is that you can almost predict what side everyone here is gonna come down on...and that's on both sides. The reactions here from the most vocal posters is direct polar opposites. That's the pattern I see.

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nyk4ever
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8/8/2006  11:37 PM
I'll be the first person that says that I think Jeffries will average more than 10points a game in this offense. I love Jared Jeffries, I saw what he can do while he was in college at Indiana and the offense that Mike Davis used there is very similar to the offense that Isiah will be using here with the Knicks. Jeffries excelled while playing in a motion offense where the ball is constantly in motion and if Isiah has Marbury on board with him, then this is what the Knicks offense will look like. We know that Jeffries is going to play great man-man defense as I've said since last December when I first started talking about Isiah acquiring him, the offense he brings will surprise many.
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n24d30
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8/9/2006  12:25 AM
Jeffries 8pts 6reb 2ast 1blk 1stl great D 30min/game without a play being called for him! We do not need him to score! We need his versatility. I just feel that he really balances things out for us. His brings something to the table that we didn't have. The ability to effect the game without needing to have the ball in his hands!
TheGame
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8/9/2006  12:43 AM
I think Jefferies needs to average more than the 6 points he has in the past. With low post scorers like curry and frye, he should get at least 6-7 open looks a game. He needs to make those shots for this team to be effective. While IT is adding defense, let's not be confused. This team is not going to ever be a "great" defensive team. It can become a good defensive team, but does not have the personnel to reach a Detriot Pistons/Spurs-type level of defense. So we need every starter to be able to score efficiently. Jefferies needs to bring a jumpshot with him. He does not need to be able to do pullup fadeaways, but he needs to consistently hit open shots b/c I think he is going to get alot of them. I would not discount the importance of our need for him to score while on the court. I would like him to average 10 points a game.
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rvhoss
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8/9/2006  12:55 AM
I think the knicks will compensate for lack of being the best defensive team in the league by scoring off turnovers. That's a way for teams to give the appearance of having a better defense but it's more a combination of turning 2 pts into 2 pts the other way, atleast a 4 point swing.

Getting turnovers and then not scoring is a wash.

The new defense will emphasize getting in the passing lanes and causing turnovers that lead immediately to points.

Also, breaking off of makes...that also adds to it...if you break off a make and score, it makes the other teams basket a wash.

It's a way of improving the defense with smoke and mirrors.

And if you are unable to get a stop...say paul pierce is on fire...you throw jefferies and balkman at him and if he's still getting under our skin, we toss lee out there to manhandle him until he's too tired to score and/or get back on defense.

We're not all saying the knicks will be this dominant suns team. To the contrary...we know what we have...we're saying that with a crafty coach that has an eye for talent and has watched from the sidelines since he took over, we will be able to steal a few games that we should win and get up on the teams we should beat.

We are also saying that there is no way last year is any indication of the type of team we have. The hornets were trying hard to win every game and they were pretty much the same, golden state as well.

You guys all say we mailed it in...so if we mailed it in, then that's 5, 6 wins right there (pessimistically).

Add in a new attitude, career's on the line, and versatile defensive players not on the roster last year and we will be able to ... well, yeah ... shock the world.
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crzymdups
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8/9/2006  1:51 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Marv:

it's not just about jeffries. it's the whole picture. what did you think would happen when we got tthomas? crawford? qrich? curry? jalen? francis? did you say all tlhe same things then that you're saying now about jeffries? not seeing any pattern here?

Marv - it's been about adding young pieces while not being allowed to tank by Dolan. Crawford was the first piece. (Ariza came next before he went off alone in the horror movie that was Larry Brown - RIP, trev). Frye, Lee, Nate came next. Then Curry. Then Balkman and Collins. Then Jeffries. That's 8 talented, young players since August 2004. 8 young players in exactly two years. They compliment each other, they're long, athletic and smart. Seriously, do you not see a plan there?

The plan has been confusing because in the same time period Jerome James, Jalen Rose, Stevie Francis, MoT, Malik have also stopped in.

The team has gotten younger and more athletic. Smarter? Don't know about that. That's BB IQ, right? There may not be such a thing so you had better stay away from that discussion. Same with athletic, that's not very measureable and no real concrete test for it. Younger we can verify, so it's safe to discuss.

there's no concrete way to test someone's athleticism? that's a new one. I guess this is how you guys talk yourselves past Marcus Williams finishing last in the draft combine?

look, bball IQ is fine and dandy, but there are different ways to play the game and be successful. my problem is with using it out of context or to insinuate something else. I still haven't heard a definition from anyone. athleticism is how high can you jump, how fast can you run, how quick are you. what's bball IQ? and was everyone on here using it the exact same way?
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rvhoss
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8/9/2006  2:06 AM
when the answer can't be had, make fun of it until you can think of one. Or keep bringing it up as much as possible and hope the happy poster says something that can be deemed bannable.
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eViL
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8/9/2006  4:58 AM
Posted by crzymdups:

I still haven't heard a definition from anyone. athleticism is how high can you jump, how fast can you run, how quick are you. what's bball IQ? and was everyone on here using it the exact same way?

Basketball IQ is not arguing with the ref on one side of the court while the man you are supposed to be guarding is draining a go ahead three pointer with a few seconds left in the game.
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rvhoss
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8/9/2006  7:09 AM
is that basketball IQ? Then nobody has it or it's something that can be learned, because everyone at one time has argued a call...I think marbury did it once.
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firefly
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8/9/2006  7:19 AM
I think the Jeffries signing was good. He's the first player in years the Knicks have signed (outside of Jerome of course) not known purely for their scoring. Jalen, Francis, MoT, Q, and Jamal, all came here to score and not much else. Yeah Malik wasnt a scorer, but I reckon he was brought here for the 2 1st rounders he brought with him.

I dont think we should be discussing how many points Jared gets, because anything he gets should be gravy over the things we really want him to do ie defend, rebound and be an all-round nuisance.
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8/9/2006  7:24 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Marv:

it's not just about jeffries. it's the whole picture. what did you think would happen when we got tthomas? crawford? qrich? curry? jalen? francis? did you say all tlhe same things then that you're saying now about jeffries? not seeing any pattern here?

Marv - it's been about adding young pieces while not being allowed to tank by Dolan. Crawford was the first piece. (Ariza came next before he went off alone in the horror movie that was Larry Brown - RIP, trev). Frye, Lee, Nate came next. Then Curry. Then Balkman and Collins. Then Jeffries. That's 8 talented, young players since August 2004. 8 young players in exactly two years. They compliment each other, they're long, athletic and smart. Seriously, do you not see a plan there?

The plan has been confusing because in the same time period Jerome James, Jalen Rose, Stevie Francis, MoT, Malik have also stopped in.

The team has gotten younger and more athletic. Smarter? Don't know about that. That's BB IQ, right? There may not be such a thing so you had better stay away from that discussion. Same with athletic, that's not very measureable and no real concrete test for it. Younger we can verify, so it's safe to discuss.
thats it in a nutshell... Nobody is saying we arent younger or more talented. The questions are the same, its just the koolaiders refuse to answer them. Is that talent worth what Isiah gave up? And Isiah has brought in just as many veteran guys as young guys. To say we are clearly rebuilding just isnt true, because we operate nothing like clearly rebuilding teams.
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bigbeast
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8/9/2006  8:36 AM
Jerome James and Mo T were scratch your head type moves. Dont think anyone would argue that. No Malik, no David Lee. The blood of JRose and Francis are on nxt-town-browns hands.
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8/9/2006  8:37 AM
A couple of reasons why I feel Jefferies is a liability on the offensive end:

1) He turns it over a lot for a guy who doesn't have the ball in his hands that often

2) He's not a particularly good or strong finisher from what I've seen.

3) Hits at a low % from the field for a 6-11 240 player, especially one who isn't a particularly good jump shooter or one who relies on his jumper.

4) Is a pretty awful free throw shooter, and if you have trouble finishing and don't hit your free throws, that spells trouble.


Now Isiah keeps harping on his ballhandling and passing. That could be his saving grace, but I'm personally a bit skeptical from what I've seen of him. We do have some guys in Lee and Balkman who've shown well in that department, and ultimately I think its a pretty nice trait in an SF.
bigbeast
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8/9/2006  8:39 AM
Posted by eViL:
Posted by crzymdups:

I still haven't heard a definition from anyone. athleticism is how high can you jump, how fast can you run, how quick are you. what's bball IQ? and was everyone on here using it the exact same way?

Basketball IQ is not arguing with the ref on one side of the court while the man you are supposed to be guarding is draining a go ahead three pointer with a few seconds left in the game.


No, BB IQ is having 40-plus different starting lineups and the idea of starting players based on their hometown is pure-unalderterated-off the charts genuis...
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rvhoss
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8/9/2006  8:52 AM
JJ came in fat, we'll see next year.
Jrose came with a pick
MoT expires this year.
Francis may still be of need...an all star back court and a young hungry set of complimentary 7 footers.
if you try to actually look beyond the current year of the deal and actually attempt to look at the 3 to 5 year's of each move, you may be suprised at the plan.

yes, there is and has always been a plan.

Because of the salary cap, trades can only happen dollar for dollar, so for everyone big contract that came in, big contracts went out, with the exception of Jerome James (see above).

If curry gives us what he gave us last year every year, we didn't give up too much for him IMHO.
Posted by bigbeast:

Jerome James and Mo T were scratch your head type moves. Dont think anyone would argue that. No Malik, no David Lee. The blood of JRose and Francis are on nxt-town-browns hands.

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VDesai
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8/9/2006  8:55 AM
BTW, I don't care what he averages if he plays excellent D, rebounds and is a ball mover on O who doesn't kill possessions. By that I mean a player who cuts his turnovers down to 1 or less, shoots about 50% from the field and 70% from the line and makes good decisions passing the ball.
rvhoss
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8/9/2006  9:06 AM
I could care less if he plays 'excellent D'...I'm not one of those guys that thinks every player on the floor needs to be an excellent defender.

if he get's more points than he gives up, I'm down with that...we have plenty of other players who will be playing solid defense.

One guy not playing perfect is no skin off my back.

Turnovers yes.
70% from the line? hmmm...what's shaq and big ben's percentage from the line? (yeah, ben plays good defense, but that's about it)

I like that you have a demanding type of personality that demands perfection from every player on the court, but this is a team game...some players good on defense, some players good on offense and the team plays together...that's good enough for me.
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