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crzymdups
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8/6/2006  6:26 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Bonn1997:

We have to do more starphucking to satisfy some fans. More steve Francis's. More Darius Miles's.

yeah, the fact that Briggs basically demanded the Steve Francis trade and said this organization was a bunch of idiots if they didn't get him and then hated the Jefferies trade for its lack of fiscal sanity doesn't add up to me.

Now Briggs wants Darius Miles? Darius and Steve? Wow. It'd be hard to think of two bigger headcases. At some point you have to factor in chemistry/personalities. Aside from Francis and Mo Taylor, I like the mix of guys we have on this team.

Yeah, Id take Steve Francis again for that deal. If we really wanted Trevor Ariza back, we couldve had him[obviously they didnt] I think Steve is a BIG key to whether or not this reclimation works. If we can actually get into high tempo stuff, then you will see Francis's value shoot right back up because he's built to be a racehorse. I really do believe that Steve Francis might be the KEY player in a material turnaround.

Would I take Darius Miles for Q yes, yes yes. what am i giving up? a 37% shooting 2 G for a player who fits with a high tempo system?

I havent bashed Steve Francis once because i know that he is an upper echlon talent--just needs to be in the right spot. If it was ME, Id start Jamal Steve and Marbury with Lee and Curry with Frye Darius Miles Jalen Rose and Marcus Williams off the bench hey wait a second:(

you think Miles would come off the bench? I don't.

see, the thing with guys like Darius Miles and Francis is that they not only want to start, they want to star. they want to get 15 shots a night and winning comes second. Marbury is probably in that group, too. I believe you can get away with a few guys like that, maybe even need a few, but if you are starting too many guys like that - there are going to be problems. Maybe Francis can put his head on straight this year and realize he's got to work to get his star back, maybe not. I'm willing to give Francis a chance for his talent. But Darius Miles? The guy is skilled, but he's had serious injury issues for two years in a row, is not a spring chicken and has serious attitude issues when he isn't starting and getting a featured role in the offense.

No no no way do I want Miles here with this mix. I'm hesitant to even keep Francis around. I don't think you can win with a guy who will only compete when his ego has been stroked right. People say Marbury does the same, but that's BS. Francis will have games where he barely even runs. Marbury at least tries.

Whether or not Jefferies is overpaid is questionable. He's a 24yr old 6'11" defender. You don't get many of those. I don't think it's a steal, I just think it's a solid solid signing. We have to build a cohesive team and Jefferies (AND Balkman, for that matter) make a ton of sense here. Would I rather have Marcus Williams over Mardy Collins? no question.
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JohnWallace44
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8/6/2006  7:24 PM
The outside shot thing is somewhat valid. I'm hoping that Q returns to form as a spot up wing shooter like he was with Phoenix. I think that we could fairly easily trade for a 3 point specialist like Korver.

Here's one blockbuster that I wonder if the Sonics would consider;

Francis, Craw and Frye - for - Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis

This would make the Sonics younger and would make the Knicks 100% better. A shooter like Allen makes Marbs a lot better driving to the basket.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Solace
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8/6/2006  8:12 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

The outside shot thing is somewhat valid. I'm hoping that Q returns to form as a spot up wing shooter like he was with Phoenix. I think that we could fairly easily trade for a 3 point specialist like Korver.

Here's one blockbuster that I wonder if the Sonics would consider;

Francis, Craw and Frye - for - Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis

This would make the Sonics younger and would make the Knicks 100% better. A shooter like Allen makes Marbs a lot better driving to the basket.

That's actually a damn good trade, but it leaves us overstocked at SF and too thin at PF. We'd probably need a follow-up to trade a SF for a PF, but otherwise, I like it.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
nixluva
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8/6/2006  9:20 PM
BRIGGS YOU JUST PROVED THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT HOW THIS TEAM IS GONNA PLAY THIS YEAR!

Isiah's offense is based on some of the best offenses ever devised and packing it in won't work against this offense.
It employs parts of these 3 offenses, the UCLA High Post Shuffle Cut, Bob Knights passing game and Tex Winters Triangle offense.

Isiah seems to have a clear sense of how these players will be able to succeed in this system. He's said and i'll paraphrase "Its a full court offense not a half court offense. It starts from the moment the ball is rebounded. Players will be on the move and already starting the play before they reach halfcourt. We'll run some two guard fronts and bring the low post up to the mid post, splits out of the high post, 2-1-2 sets. We'll teach them how to make shots off of splits, distort the court on angles, hit, split, screen and cut, speed up the offense. Good offense will beat good defense. We'll play at a higher tempo and plan to use 10 players every night to keep people fresh."

A guy like Frye will be VERY good in a UCLA High Post system like this. His BB IQ and ability to hit the jumper will be exploited. I like both Jared and Lee and Balkman in this offense as well. They can handle the ball well, they're quick and athletic and are smart players. The principles of the Triangle naturally create greater floor spacing and give our excellent penetrators room to make their moves. Curry's size will make him an excellent low post pivot in the Triangle. We can run a lot of cuts and screens around him. I believe that he's being trained as we speak on the principles of his position in this offense. This is why it was important for Aguirre to run the summer league games and get even more familiar with the principles, since they knew he'd be working with Curry.

We have an excellent group of scoring guards, who are all a threat to penetrate and score at any moment. Since this offense is one that involves constant player movement, packing it in won't work. The defense has to react to the screens and slashes to the basket and back cuts. The aim of these offenses isn't deep shots, but HIGH % shots towards the basket or open midrange shots off pick and pop/rolls. Its really a very nice offense for a team like ours. Teams already have a hard time staying in front of our guards and this will only make them more dangerous.
JohnWallace44
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8/6/2006  9:52 PM
I watched the new offense in action and I'm pumped to watch it in the regular season. It will make us better, no doubt. However, one of the options in that Triangle will always be a trey from the corner. Nate hit from there several times in Vegas.

That's the problem for the Knicks. Nate was our best 3 point shooter last year percentage wise. We need improvements from Q, Craw, Marbs, Jeffries, Collins, Balkman and Francis in that area in order to make this work really well. If the man in the Triangle standing outside the arc is not a threat, you're going to end up basically playing against a 3 man zone on the triangle side because they won't cover the guy outside the arc.

I would think that we could get a good spot-up shooter in a trade fairly easilly, but who knows. Korver, Simmons, JRich, Allen, Childress, or McCants would be gettable I would think. They are all players that can play the 2 spot with good size, speed and 3 point shooting ability.

There is no argument about the Knicks being better. This is a debate about making baby steps or giant leaps. We need a better outside shooter at the 2 to make a giant leap. Chicago always had Kerr, BJ, Kukoc, MJ, and Pippen that could rotate into that outside spot in the triangle. We don't have a BJ or a Kerr shooting wise, and our guys would need to step it up in the off season to get to the shooting level of Kukoc, Pip and MJ.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
nixluva
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8/6/2006  9:59 PM
The 3pt option is a good point, but again its only one option and we won't always be running the triangle. Its a combo offense based on 3 different concepts that attack a defense in different ways. It will make us highly flexible, unlike LB's limited offense that often didn't have an answer for certain defenses, like zone for instance. This offense will have an answer for most of the things we're likely to see. This team is gonna be a hell of a lot more potent than people realize.
joec32033
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8/6/2006  10:17 PM
Posted by nixluva:

BRIGGS YOU JUST PROVED THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT HOW THIS TEAM IS GONNA PLAY THIS YEAR!

Isiah's offense is based on some of the best offenses ever devised and packing it in won't work against this offense.
It employs parts of these 3 offenses, the UCLA High Post Shuffle Cut, Bob Knights passing game and Tex Winters Triangle offense.

Isiah seems to have a clear sense of how these players will be able to succeed in this system. He's said and i'll paraphrase "Its a full court offense not a half court offense. It starts from the moment the ball is rebounded. Players will be on the move and already starting the play before they reach halfcourt. We'll run some two guard fronts and bring the low post up to the mid post, splits out of the high post, 2-1-2 sets. We'll teach them how to make shots off of splits, distort the court on angles, hit, split, screen and cut, speed up the offense. Good offense will beat good defense. We'll play at a higher tempo and plan to use 10 players every night to keep people fresh."

A guy like Frye will be VERY good in a UCLA High Post system like this. His BB IQ and ability to hit the jumper will be exploited. I like both Jared and Lee and Balkman in this offense as well. They can handle the ball well, they're quick and athletic and are smart players. The principles of the Triangle naturally create greater floor spacing and give our excellent penetrators room to make their moves. Curry's size will make him an excellent low post pivot in the Triangle. We can run a lot of cuts and screens around him. I believe that he's being trained as we speak on the principles of his position in this offense. This is why it was important for Aguirre to run the summer league games and get even more familiar with the principles, since they knew he'd be working with Curry.

We have an excellent group of scoring guards, who are all a threat to penetrate and score at any moment. Since this offense is one that involves constant player movement, packing it in won't work. The defense has to react to the screens and slashes to the basket and back cuts. The aim of these offenses isn't deep shots, but HIGH % shots towards the basket or open midrange shots off pick and pop/rolls. Its really a very nice offense for a team like ours. Teams already have a hard time staying in front of our guards and this will only make them more dangerous.

So other than just designing the perfect offense, Isiah also has to teach it to players who couldn't quite understand "defend, rebound, pass"?

Seriously, the way you describe it, it is like a skeleton key. The way it is explained, this offense can crack any defense. Isiah is a young, innovative, creative offensive mind. Isiah is not this creative. If what you are saying is true about this offense, not only is this a life's work-thesis level offense, it is relying on alot of structure-that the players didn't like when Larry was here- (I remember someone described the Triangle offense-and this was a long time ago- as organized chaos because of all the movement).

The most free-flowing are always the most structured because each movement is planned. The difference between the LB type offense and the offense that Isiah is installing is that Isiah's offense will have more options. And I am not sure that is a good thing considering we do not have an intelligent basketball-wise team.
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misterearl
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8/6/2006  10:32 PM
>>And I am not sure that is a good thing considering we do not have an intelligent basketball-wise team.


joeC - what are you basing that on?

Frye, Jeffries and Lee have plenty of intelligence.

Curry, without benefit of college, is simply young...I do not understand why some want to label his intelligence as below-par.

Balkman knows how to play within his skill-set and works his azz off. Ditto for Nate.

Marbury is no fool.
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misterearl
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8/6/2006  10:33 PM
Thew problem is cohesion and trust

Both of which were undermined last season
once a knick always a knick
joec32033
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8/6/2006  10:37 PM
Posted by misterearl:

>>And I am not sure that is a good thing considering we do not have an intelligent basketball-wise team.


joeC - what are you basing that on?

Frye, Jeffries and Lee have plenty of intelligence.

Curry, without benefit of college, is simply young...I do not understand why some want to label his intelligence as below-par.

Balkman knows how to play within his skill-set and works his azz off. Ditto for Nate.

Marbury is no fool.

Bro...how bad is it that the first names that came to you when thinking of bball intelligence on the Knicks that rookies and second year players came to you before guys like Marbury, Francis, etc., etc., etc.

And let's be clear, I am talking basketball intelligence, not general intelligence.

I agree....with the fact that the highest basketball IQ on this team belongs to Frye, Lee-those are the top two to me by far-possibly Jefferies. But once again the fact that we are talking about guys that are 24 and under as opposed to out "20 and 8" PG says alot, let alone the other vets we have.

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crzymdups
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8/6/2006  11:14 PM
Posted by joec32033:


So other than just designing the perfect offense, Isiah also has to teach it to players who couldn't quite understand "defend, rebound, pass"?

Seriously, the way you describe it, it is like a skeleton key. The way it is explained, this offense can crack any defense. Isiah is a young, innovative, creative offensive mind. Isiah is not this creative. If what you are saying is true about this offense, not only is this a life's work-thesis level offense, it is relying on alot of structure-that the players didn't like when Larry was here- (I remember someone described the Triangle offense-and this was a long time ago- as organized chaos because of all the movement).

The most free-flowing are always the most structured because each movement is planned. The difference between the LB type offense and the offense that Isiah is installing is that Isiah's offense will have more options. And I am not sure that is a good thing considering we do not have an intelligent basketball-wise team.

Isiah is a good coach, though I think nixluva is slightly overrating the brilliance of the system, I think it will be made perfectly clear to them. how well was Balkman running it in his first pre-season game after a one week coaching clinic with Isiah? that, to me, speaks volumes.

I think what you're underrating is the impact Larry Brown had last year - he's a horrendous offensive coach. He also destroyed any kind of cohesion and chemistry that could have been formed by experimenting with lineups and yanking players around in the media. With 10 new players, his level of tinkering was murderous to the teams chances. So in case you haven't heard this one yet - it was pretty much the worst coaching job in NBA history, possibly in the history of organized sports. He sucks.
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arkrud
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8/6/2006  11:33 PM
The reason for turnovers is pretty clear - most of the Knicks players have very low basketball and also personal IQ.
Some just plain stupid. Actually this was the main reason why this never works out with LB. His system is not for morons.
You cannot build winning teams from tall and athletic morons. You can have some but not all or almost all on you team. This is not a football when it is good enough to have just 2-3 players on the field with the brain.
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crzymdups
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8/6/2006  11:37 PM
Posted by arkrud:

The reason for turnovers is pretty clear - most of the Knicks players have very low basketball and also personal IQ.
Some just plain stupid. Actually this was the main reason why this never works out with LB. His system is not for morons.
You cannot build winning teams from tall and athletic morons. You can have some but not all or almost all on you team. This is not a football when it is good enough to have just 2-3 players on the field with the brain.

why did the rise in turnovers coincide with Brown's arrival, then?
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tomverve
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8/7/2006  12:31 AM
How does one quantify "basketball IQ"? How does one even come to judge what a player's "basketball IQ" is? In the past weeks for instance I've read that Jeffries is a "high bball IQ" player and also that he's a "low bball IQ" player. Who's right, and why? More likely, no one really has good grounds for saying he's one or the other.

crzy brings up a good point about the TOs. In the previous two seasons, the Knicks were 22nd and 19th in TOs-- not great, but not rock bottom awful either. We were also a bit better on eFG%. I think crzy has a point that roster turnover and Brown's square-peg-in-round-hole offense contributed a lot to the rise in TOs, but then again, importing Eddy Curry must have made a fair contribution too, and prospects for Curry's TO numbers improving aren't as rosey.

On the other hand, we were also around 20th in offensive rebounding % and free throw frequency the past two seasons, and last season we shot up to the top of the league in those respects. So what Isiah must get the team to do in order to have a really effective offense is to improve to at least acceptable levels in terms of eFG% and TOs (we're not going to be tops in the league on those measures, but we can at least get to acceptable levels) and not lose too much from the offensive rebounding and getting to the line.
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nixluva
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8/7/2006  1:06 AM
actually I think the TO's will be very much under control. You have to understand that this team DOES have smart players on it. Don't buy into that LB and Media fed crap about this team. They'll be capable of running this offense. Its not like Isiah will be expecting them to master the whole playbook on day one. Its gonna be a gradual process. I mean are we in a rush here? Not with a core team as young as ours is.

By the way its a VERY nice system. Isiah has used it before to good success in Indianna. Don't make the mistake of assuming that he's not a very talented coach, just because of how he handled the GM duties. Its a different animal. Isiah is GOOD at coaching and the players like him and are already buying into what he's preaching.

Just go back and look at the TO numbers for that 10 game stretch which included the streak and you'll see that they went down. There's nothing wrong with these players when they're not being forced to do crap that goes against their natural abilities. LB was a HUGE factor in how this team looked last year. They're MUCH better than that and you'll see that this year.
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8/7/2006  1:28 AM
tom--no ned to go into paragraphs of efg etc.. you want to see basketball IQ go watch Steve Nash.

we missed adding HUGE basketball IQ to the PG position in M Williams which will turn out as a huge mistake. the PGs we have now--marbury and nate? good players dumb as bricks marcus is always looking UP and SEEING how he can get someone a point blank shot and it starts at 90 feet. All of these years we have no PG dumb PG etc... how can we pass on a 6-3 210 SMART PG? balkman we couldve had at 29 ah hamburger
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crzymdups
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8/7/2006  2:26 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

tom--no ned to go into paragraphs of efg etc.. you want to see basketball IQ go watch Steve Nash.

we missed adding HUGE basketball IQ to the PG position in M Williams which will turn out as a huge mistake. the PGs we have now--marbury and nate? good players dumb as bricks marcus is always looking UP and SEEING how he can get someone a point blank shot and it starts at 90 feet. All of these years we have no PG dumb PG etc... how can we pass on a 6-3 210 SMART PG? balkman we couldve had at 29 ah hamburger

Crawford is the other point guard, not Nate. Crawford and Collins are both smart.
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joec32033
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8/7/2006  8:03 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by BRIGGS:

tom--no ned to go into paragraphs of efg etc.. you want to see basketball IQ go watch Steve Nash.

we missed adding HUGE basketball IQ to the PG position in M Williams which will turn out as a huge mistake. the PGs we have now--marbury and nate? good players dumb as bricks marcus is always looking UP and SEEING how he can get someone a point blank shot and it starts at 90 feet. All of these years we have no PG dumb PG etc... how can we pass on a 6-3 210 SMART PG? balkman we couldve had at 29 ah hamburger

Crawford is the other point guard, not Nate. Crawford and Collins are both smart.

The correct phrasing is Crawford is less stupid than Nate....which doesn't make him smart.
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OAK
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8/7/2006  8:54 AM
I agree with BRIGGS 100%.
TheGame
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8/7/2006  9:07 AM
The thing with Marcus is that he did not represent himself well. Everyone is always complaining about the knuckleheads on this team, but IT passes on a potential knucklehead and people want to roast him for it. Marcus got into serious criminal trouble in school and then shows up for the pre-draft workouts out of shape. Does that sound like a guy you want as your future PG, i.e. leader? Plus, you throw in the fact that we are committed to Marbury, who is 29 or 30, and Nate, who has alot of potential, at the PG positions. Moreover, we needed help at the SF position and IT saw a guy that he thought was perfect for what he wanted to do (and based on his SL play, it looks like IT was right about Balkman). Maybe in 5 years we regret not drafting Marcus, but Marcus could just as easily turn out to be another talented but flawed knucklehead that we would be moaning needs to be removed from the team. Hindsight is always 20-20, but IT made a decision and it was one that makes some sense for this team.
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