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How is Bruce Bowen making 3.5 mm and Jefferies 6mm?
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islesfan
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8/6/2006  1:26 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

I know I know. I was trying to place a little humor in the thread...

I still like the signing btw.

You did, that was funny ****.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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Allanfan20
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8/6/2006  1:32 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Allanfan20:

I know I know. I was trying to place a little humor in the thread...

I still like the signing btw.

You did, that was funny ****.

Hey thanks Isles, you're on the top of my list, did I ever tell you that? Did you know that Bonn talks to a Moosehead and kicks little puppies?
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Elite
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8/6/2006  2:31 AM
i can see about 6 jeffries is overpaid threads by briggs in the next 2 days
crzymdups
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8/6/2006  3:28 AM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:

whereas Jeffries is reasonably paid @ the league average.

I call BS.

There's no way in hell that a role player averaging his numbers is reasonably paid at $6M per (which by the way is more than the league average.

The MLE is defined as the league average.

It has the raises factored in. It's not a flat $6 MM per year. The first year is that at league average, and then with max raises every year. He'll likely be above league average in the following years.

Anyway, point is we paid a lot for a role player. Not as bad as an Eisley or Anderson, because the CBA restricts the contract to max 5 years and JJ is young, with the potential to quickly improve. But he will cost the organization $12 MM a year. That's a lot of money to spend for an organization who won 23 games last year.

why do you think the salary cap goes up every year? the whole league gets, on average, a 10% raise every year.

and because Larry Brown tanked games, the Knicks aren't allowed to sign a player that will help them?
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Vmart
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8/6/2006  8:14 AM
Only reason Bowen makes what he does is because he was never available to the KNicks. I have to agree with BRIGGS on this one there is no way that Jefferies is worth the money Isiah threw at him. Only reason I think Isiah would have done this is because he might see potential in Jeffereies that will be seen in the future.

If any of you have looked up Jefferies you will see that his numbers are down right aweful from free throw percentage to his FG percentage. If Isiah got him for defense then he better be the top three defensive players in the league and hold his man 10 points under his average on a nightly basis.
rvhoss
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8/6/2006  8:17 AM
because bowen didn't want to change teams.
all kool aid all the time.
rvhoss
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8/6/2006  8:20 AM
hey, i'm all about rose colored glasses, and this guy was the best defender on the wizards, so while he may not be top three defensive players in the league, he's not being paid like one, so why should he be one of the top 3 in the league?

If he's the top on our team, he's worth it.

the jury is still out on that.

but to suddenly place New York expectations on a guy because you think he's over paid is kind of weak.

a good dinner in manhattan costs waaaaaay more than a good dinner in kansas, does it make it better?
Posted by Vmart:



If any of you have looked up Jefferies you will see that his numbers are down right aweful from free throw percentage to his FG percentage. If Isiah got him for defense then he better be the top three defensive players in the league and hold his man 10 points under his average on a nightly basis.

all kool aid all the time.
Vmart
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8/6/2006  8:28 AM
Posted by rvhoss:

hey, i'm all about rose colored glasses, and this guy was the best defender on the wizards, so while he may not be top three defensive players in the league, he's not being paid like one, so why should he be one of the top 3 in the league?

If he's the top on our team, he's worth it.

the jury is still out on that.

but to suddenly place New York expectations on a guy because you think he's over paid is kind of weak.

a good dinner in manhattan costs waaaaaay more than a good dinner in kansas, does it make it better?
Posted by Vmart:



If any of you have looked up Jefferies you will see that his numbers are down right aweful from free throw percentage to his FG percentage. If Isiah got him for defense then he better be the top three defensive players in the league and hold his man 10 points under his average on a nightly basis.

I'm not putting any expectations on anyone. only the season will tell if it was a good move. Does he have to be top three of course not but he should do something positive to help the knicks.
Bonn1997
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8/6/2006  9:55 AM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:

whereas Jeffries is reasonably paid @ the league average.

I call BS.

There's no way in hell that a role player averaging his numbers is reasonably paid at $6M per (which by the way is more than the league average.

The MLE is defined as the league average.

It has the raises factored in. It's not a flat $6 MM per year. The first year is that at league average, and then with max raises every year. He'll likely be above league average in the following years.

Anyway, point is we paid a lot for a role player. Not as bad as an Eisley or Anderson, because the CBA restricts the contract to max 5 years and JJ is young, with the potential to quickly improve. But he will cost the organization $12 MM a year. That's a lot of money to spend for an organization who won 23 games last year.
Technically the salary increases 12.5% annually because that's how much the average salary increases annually. So, he wouldn't exceed the average.
But anyway, the goal of a well run organization should be to get under or at least near the cap and not take back any long contracts unless a superstar is attached to them. But that's not going to happen in NY. The next best scenario is getting solid players at reasonable prices. We obviously disagree on whether the Jeffries signing would qualify here. No point in arguing over that again.

islesfan
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8/6/2006  10:22 AM
Since when is average = reasonable?

Jerome James got the average. Is his contract reasonable?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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8/6/2006  11:09 AM
Average is reasonable if you're a good role player. If you're garbage like J James, average is completely unreasonable.
islesfan
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8/6/2006  11:32 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Average is reasonable if you're a good role player. If you're garbage like J James, average is completely unreasonable.

That's BS. How many "good role players" are making the average? Most good role players make half the average, if that.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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8/6/2006  11:38 AM
Hell, let's go back to the title of this thread. Bowen is probably one of the best role players in the NBA and he's going to make half of what Jeffries will make.

A max MLE is NOT reasonable for a role player.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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8/6/2006  11:51 AM
Bowen was a steal. 90% of NBA signings will look awful when compared to him.
Vmart
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8/6/2006  12:26 PM
There were years Jordan made less than other great players of his era. I think you have to look into when Bowen signed his contract and what he thought he wanted. Maybe Bowen isn't a greed man is content making what he makes and he wants to be a Spur. We must take these factors into account before we talk about why Jefferies make more than Bowen.
Masterplan
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8/6/2006  12:46 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Hell, let's go back to the title of this thread. Bowen is probably one of the best role players in the NBA and he's going to make half of what Jeffries will make.

A max MLE is NOT reasonable for a role player.

didn't bowen intentionally resign at a discount to the spurs? he knows he's making less than he's worth, and he's OK with that because he has gotten rings and has a good shot at another one every year. that's a benefit we can't promise in NY, one of the reasons we don't have people willing to sign here at a discount like bowen, or payton and malone on that ill-fated lakers team.

bruce bowen is a poor comparison because no one would say he makes market value. he values championships over dollars, and his spot on a team that gives him that opportunity.
tomverve
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8/6/2006  1:03 PM
I think there's probably a mismatch in how the word "average" is used in the two situations-- contracts and player quality.

The MLE (the average NBA contract) is the average player salary, but that's a mathematical average that actually does lie somewhere in the middle of the NBA salary distribution. Plus, this mathematical average is inflated by all those unjustified big contracts dotting the NBA landscape. There are more big, bad contracts than there are bargain contracts, and that skews the salary average towards being inflated as well, relative to player ability. That means that the average NBA player probably rightly deserves less than the MLE.

However, in common parlance, the "average" NBA player is probably just a pretty good role player, not a player whose ability actually lies somewhere in the middle of the NBA's player quality distribution (pretty good role players are lower down on the totem pole). And players who are actually somewhere in the middle of the NBA's player quality distribution are the ones who actually deserve somewhere near the average salary. For instance, the average NBA player's PER is set to 15 each year, but players with a PER of 15 are typically players one thinks as being a bit "above average" when using the layman's sense of the word (examples from last year: Ben Gordon (14.7), Andre Iguodala (15), Chris Kaman (15.2)). Players one typically thinks of as "average" in the common parlance are actually below average in a more objective sense (e.g. Jared Jeffries, clocking in with a PER of 11.7 last season).
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fishmike
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8/6/2006  1:34 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Average is reasonable if you're a good role player. If you're garbage like J James, average is completely unreasonable.
you loved that signing.. remind me again about his great playoff series against Brad Miller.

We overpaid for Jeffries.. of this I have no doubt. I like the signing however, because I dont care about overpaying when its just cash, and the player isnt old or have Francis like baggage. Jeffries is what? 25? He's more versatile then his #s show and he plays hard and defends hard.

So long as we dont overpay in draft picks or prospects I'm OK.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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8/6/2006  3:17 PM
Do you live simply to prove people wrong? Who cares if I "loved" the Jerome signing (which I never did)? I'm simply not the gifted, perfect analyst you are!
Solace
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8/6/2006  5:39 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Do you live simply to prove people wrong? Who cares if I "loved" the Jerome signing (which I never did)? I'm simply not the gifted, perfect analyst you are!

I remember you loving the JJ signing, actually. I think your argument was for a starting bigman you'd usually pay more, and his playoffs, etc...

Anyway, this isn't about JJ. We did overpay for JJ2, but not in the sense that we could've gotten him cheaper, just in the sense that it's a lot for a player who really hasn't proved *that* much in the NBA yet. Explode for 14 ppg and 7 rpg, with good defense and nobody is complaining.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
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How is Bruce Bowen making 3.5 mm and Jefferies 6mm?
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