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Team performs better AFTER LB
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Pharzeone
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8/4/2006  1:19 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by rvhoss:

It looks like team usa, with largely the same stars that got nothing but bench time under LB and got routed by puerto rico just blew them out using those same stars. Melo, Wade and LJ.

The knicks will learn from LB's mistakes as well.
your right... I also hope the new coach doesnt tell Richard Jefferson to shoot 25% for the entire tourney, or Duncan to commit 3 fouls after each 15 minutes of play. Those were easily Larry's worst moves.

LOL, yeah, Duncan doesn't know how to play the right. Brown didn't have enough time to teach him.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
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Andrew
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8/4/2006  1:21 PM
Can anyone tell me why the Team USA system was changed? If it were as easy as changing the coach wouldn't you think that would have been done? LB was a bad fit, the players were a bad fit for international competition.

Are you guys really saying there is no difference between Lebron, Carmello and Wade from 2 years ago? Think those guys impoved a little to justify more PT?
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Pharzeone
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8/4/2006  1:31 PM
Posted by Andrew:

Can anyone tell me why the Team USA system was changed? If it were as easy as changing the coach wouldn't you think that would have been done? LB was a bad fit, the players were a bad fit for international competition.

Are you guys really saying there is no difference between Lebron, Carmello and Wade from 2 years ago? Think those guys impoved a little to justify more PT?

Andrew, Lebron was talk about for MVP consideration 04-05 season. Wade led his team to the Eastern Conference Finals game 7, if not for his injury and Shaq's more likely they could be celebrating a 2nd Championship. Anthony has blossom into a better player but lets face it, he was probably better than those 2 at that time. No one could understand why those guys and Amare were not properly used (sounds familar). The problem is that Brown has said time after time. He doesn't care about winning or losing, as long as the game is played the right way. That's great if you had many seasons to implement your beliefs, and teachings. Just doesn't work. Now instead of trying to force the ball into Tim Duncan almost on every possession, they are more creative.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Andrew
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8/4/2006  1:35 PM
ok...then answer my first question.
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Andrew
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8/4/2006  1:39 PM
...and If you look back to my post, I said he was a bad fit for the team and competition. Thats why the system needed changing.
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Bonn1997
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8/4/2006  1:41 PM
Can anyone tell me why the Team USA system was changed?
Because Larry wrecked the old system!
Bippity10
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8/4/2006  1:45 PM
Bobby Knight is one of the all time great coach's but there is a reason that he is not asked to coach a mish mash bunch of professional players. Because it wouldn't be a good fit. Does this make him a bad coach, or management wise for not mixing oil with water. This is the whole crux of the problem that many people can't come to grips with. The Olympic team and him were a bad mix. We the Knicks made the same mistake. We have a mishmash group of players and then brought in a disciplinarian to coach them. When he became a disciplinarian we hated his tactics and did nothing to support him.

My question after all this is why do we keep allowing management to make poor decision after poor decision never asking them to change their ways. Always getting rid of the result and not the cause of the problem.

The Olympic management did a great job. They recognized the problem and they fixed it. They have an all-star team so they went and got a coach that is better at massaging egos. They realized it also wasn't all coaching's fault like many want to make it out to be. Instead they realized part of it was the make up of the roster. So they began to focus on adding role players. That's what good management teams do. Find the crux of the problem and fix it. We instead find someone to blame, fire them and then live in a fake land of bliss until we fail again and then find a new person to blame.

Why can't NYkers see what is wrong with their team? It ain't Larry Brown. It's the Knicks fellas. Come to grips with it. I've been saying this since the Donald Duck is better than Chaney debates of 2003. I know some of you guys remember this. It's amazing that a few years later I'm typing the same sh-it and being called the same names. Amazing to me.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 08-04-2006 1:48 PM]
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Andrew
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8/4/2006  1:49 PM
Bippity...thank you.
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Nalod
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8/4/2006  1:53 PM
I thought the 04 team sucked because they were wearing overpriced sneaker?
nyvector16
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8/4/2006  1:59 PM
A couple of quotes from Coach Krzyzewski that might give interesting insight:

"I think keeping the ego of each guy at a high level is important,"

the author of the article below then adds:
The emphasis on subjugating egos is a direct reflection of the difference in the approach to basketball by the international powers that have embarrassed the U.S. in recent competitions.

http://sportsline.com/print/nba/story/9571554

........................

Less than one week before the Olympics began last August in Athens, Larry Brown met with officials from USA Basketball and lobbied to have Marbury cut and sent home, along with another unidentified player, prior to the Opening Ceremonies.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/330020p-282044c.html

........................

Allanfan20
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8/4/2006  1:59 PM
Bip, we are creatures of habits and the habit here is that we look at the easy things to spot and Larry Brown is the easiest target. As is Marbury as was Allan Houston as was Don Chaney and Lenny Wilkins and Herb and even Kurt Thomas. We look at our leaders with the most credibility (Maybe not so much Marbury) and find that getting rid of them is the easiest solutions and that the evil things they have done have burned our beloved Knicks to the ground.

Granted, all the guys I've mentioned above have big flaws and yes, LB did a job worthy of being fired. But now people get so fixated that they don't even look at what's really going on. The real problem with the Knicks is so much deeper than Larry Brown. It's a whole environment, a culture, a mix and non match of egos and veterans who are bad influences on a bright group of young players we have, to go with an incompetant management team that feeds the fans, media coaches and players crap that they shouldn't even be seeing, hearing or dealing with.

But the fans clearly look at one person, maybe 2 or 3 and stick to it and realize that getting rid of them ain't fixing the real problem at hand. It's not just Isiah, it's not just Dolan, (Although I think the main portion falls on him) and it's not just Marbury as it wasn't just Allan or Kurt.

It's this whole debacle of an organization that used to be the New York Knicks. A org that every team in the league dreaded playing on our home court b/c we were so tough. That's no longer the case.

And soon, the next 2 men to blame will be Channing Frye and Eddie Curry.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Pharzeone
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8/4/2006  2:06 PM
Brown was a bad fit which is the fault of Thomas and Mills for listening to Dolan who holds Thomas responsible. Brown was a horrible choice for Team USA as well which the NBA Board of Governors only owned up to after the fiasco in 2004. Stern should and will always take the blunt of blame. Who would have thunk it. I agree though a try out process is hundred times better and being able to cut players is perfect but look at Brown. He wanted to cut Marbury who probably was his best player over there. That's sad on so many levels.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
nyvector16
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8/4/2006  2:15 PM
Larry Brown seems more interesed in his own preeminence than in actually achieving fundamental results that translate to wins.
Bippity10
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8/4/2006  2:18 PM
Pharze and Allan: I agre with both of your posts. The only thing I take issue with is the part about Marbury. It doesn't matter if he is your best player. If LB is having problems with him and it can't be fixed it can lead to what we saw happen. that's the old high school mentality. Some coach's have great players and they let that player run roughshod over them so they can win a few games. Then they come to my gym and get trounced by a group of guys with no talent who work their tails off because they know I will literally kill them if they don't.

That's part of our problem here and I think Allanfan hits it on the head. It's not the talent level of the players or coach's here. We have a roster talented enough to win games. We've brought in coach's who are good enough to help us win games. But it's this culture of losing that permeates all that we do. Think about it, 4 or 5 guys come into camp out of shape. Instead of blasting them we blame our coaching staff. Our team quits for a stretch of almost 30 games, instead of blasting the players we say it's okay to quit because the coach is mean, or has a bad system or quit himself.

It's amazing to me. What has happened to our fans? Why aren't we demanding effort every night. How do we expect his amazing turnaround if we excuse players that think there is a reason to quit,ever. I don't care if the coach comes to practice screaming that he wants you to lose every game and subs guys in every 6 seconds. If you are a real man, you don't want to lose. Ever. That's sports. Guys that quit on themselves and us and Ny don't deserve our applause until they change. Our fans are slowly being sucked into this culture of losing. Settling for 40 win seasons and sneaking into eigth seeds. Praying we do whatever it takes to get us 40 wins instead of building towards a lasting championship.

It's time to change our methods. We have such a good young core. It would be a shame to mess with it.
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Bippity10
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8/4/2006  2:19 PM
Posted by nyvector16:

Larry Brown seems more interesed in his own preeminence than in actually achieving fundamental results that translate to wins.

Two straight trips to the finals tells you this?
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Allanfan20
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8/4/2006  2:29 PM
Bip, the one thing though with Marbury and Isiah. We saw that Marbury couldn't even be dealt with by Brown and vice versa. I think Isiah and Mabury being boys now, we'll see Isiah stepping up to Marbury to his face, as opposed to the media and demand nothing but what Isiah wants and needs. I think the direction this team goes is how Marbury will respond to that. If he continues to only play good D for 4 game stretches then slacking for 3 weeks, I think you'll see his arse gone.

I kinda have faith in Isiah in choosing what players will be good to fit his system. We just have to hope he can deal with the egotystical veterans which is a bad kind of hope when you think of it....

I think though that our young core can gel nicely. Obviously we'll need a star to develop out of one of them maybe, or go get one. But the young guys we have are a good start, even if the vet situation is hard. I think you'll see him riding with the youngies though.

I think all hope for this org truely falls on them now. Curry, Lee, Frye, Crawford, Nate, Jefferies, Balkman, maybe Q. What are they gonna do?
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
nyvector16
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8/4/2006  2:30 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by nyvector16:

Larry Brown seems more interesed in his own preeminence than in actually achieving fundamental results that translate to wins.

Two straight trips to the finals tells you this?

No... 41 different starting lineups, Player Bashing in the media, chaotic rotations, Benching the hot hand in alot of the games, etc... does.
Allanfan20
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8/4/2006  2:33 PM
vector, LB did a bad job and even should have been fired. He was part of the problem. Now lets work on fixing the rest of it. It's a very large problem and lingering on LB certainly wont help matters.

Do you think Isiah being on a 1 year ultimatum while being responsible for 2 enormous NBA jobs at the same time helps this problem too?
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bonn1997
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8/4/2006  2:35 PM
Some translations here:
Woman during break: "It's not you; it's me."
Translation: "It's you!"
LB sympathizer:, "It was just a bad fit."
Translation: "Coach underperformed."
LB sympathizer: "Our team has so many problems."
Translation: "If you have many bad apples, you can't get rid of any of them!"
Allanfan20
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8/4/2006  2:37 PM
Back to the topic at hand. How's the moose head?
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Team performs better AFTER LB

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