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we're going with the same team that won 23 games--we are not winning more than 32
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bigbeast
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7/20/2006  1:12 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Our focus as fans should get away from this isle of mediocrity hoping for 40 wins and thinking that's success. We should be thinking about whether we are building a team and developing players with the mental fortitude and talent to eventually win a title. Fourty wins just means we need to make more changes in order to reach our ultimate goal.

Stop settling.


I agree with your assesment. However, reality tells you that the Knicks will not quantum leap from 23 wins to championship contender the next year. 40 wins next year is mediocre, but it is what it is, a step up from the previous year.

At the same time, I think the Knicks have some nice young pieces that can be a vital part to a whole championship puzzle (Frye, Lee, Balkman, Craw, Curry, Nate) None of those guys are superstars, but they could play the supporting role to a superstar player if the knicks can get a hold of one after Marb, and Francis contracts expire in three years.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
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nyk4ever
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7/20/2006  1:20 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by Bippity10:

Our focus as fans should get away from this isle of mediocrity hoping for 40 wins and thinking that's success. We should be thinking about whether we are building a team and developing players with the mental fortitude and talent to eventually win a title. Fourty wins just means we need to make more changes in order to reach our ultimate goal.

Stop settling.


I agree with your assesment. However, reality tells you that the Knicks will not quantum leap from 23 wins to championship contender the next year. 40 wins next year is mediocre, but it is what it is, a step up from the previous year.

At the same time, I think the Knicks have some nice young pieces that can be a vital part to a whole championship puzzle (Frye, Lee, Balkman, Craw, Curry, Nate) None of those guys are superstars, but they could play the supporting role to a superstar player if the knicks can get a hold of one after Marb, and Francis contracts expire in three years.

Thres no question about the Knicks offensively. If they win 40games will playing no defense, I will deem this season as a huge disappointment. You can't win without defense.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Anji
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7/20/2006  1:25 PM
YOu can't win with out winning first. ROFL.... not every team builds the pistons D on the way to becoming champs. Most teams actually get better offensively then trim the excess.

[Edited by - Anji on 07-20-2006 1:28 PM]
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
nyk4ever
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7/20/2006  1:27 PM
Posted by Anji:

YOu can't win with out winning first. ROFL.... not every team builds the pistons D on the way to becoming champs. Most teams actually get better the offensively then trim the excess.

Isiah's had 3 years to build up his offense and his record has only gotten worse. Time to putup or shutup with the FULL gameplan. If not, goodbye Isiah.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Anji
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7/20/2006  1:32 PM
According to who??? To you put up or shut up comes with extra circumstances, like the way you want the team to win. All he has to do is win, period.

And this is Isiah's third year so he should win, that's not the mantra for other rebuilding situations in their third years, but that's Isiah cross to bear
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
nyk4ever
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7/20/2006  1:34 PM
Posted by Anji:

According to who??? To you put up or shut up comes with extra circumstances, like the way you want the team to win. All he has to do is win, period.

And this is Isiah's third year so he should win, that's not the mantra for other rebuilding situations in their third years, but that's Isiah cross to bear

When you spend as much money as Isiah has, your leash is much shorter than any other rebuilding situation. 90% of the GM's in the NBA would kill to have the resouces that Isiah has. If your winning and that winning isn't conducive to winning in the playoffs, whats the point?
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Bippity10
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7/20/2006  2:36 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by Bippity10:

Our focus as fans should get away from this isle of mediocrity hoping for 40 wins and thinking that's success. We should be thinking about whether we are building a team and developing players with the mental fortitude and talent to eventually win a title. Fourty wins just means we need to make more changes in order to reach our ultimate goal.

Stop settling.


I agree with your assesment. However, reality tells you that the Knicks will not quantum leap from 23 wins to championship contender the next year. 40 wins next year is mediocre, but it is what it is, a step up from the previous year.

At the same time, I think the Knicks have some nice young pieces that can be a vital part to a whole championship puzzle (Frye, Lee, Balkman, Craw, Curry, Nate) None of those guys are superstars, but they could play the supporting role to a superstar player if the knicks can get a hold of one after Marb, and Francis contracts expire in three years.

That's why I don't care about wins. We hit rock bottom(hopefully) last year. It should be about where we go from here to build a team from rock bottom instead of dreaming of 40 wins and making the playoffs. I don't think too many fans realize we can win 23 games and have a bright future or we could win 37-40 and still be stuck treading water.

For me the worst thing to come out of last season was the acceptance of quitting by the fans. Sure last year was tough. we all can admit that. But we can't go to battle with a team that feels it's okay to quit. Yes we can win 40 games and get to the playoffs that way, but winning a title is another story. It's also sad that now that Isiah seems to finally be listening to the "knick haters" who have been screaming for financial responsibility. Now that he is finally listenig fans appear to be stepping back and thinking everything is okay. No, we need to keep the heat on these guys. Criticism is not a bad thing. Criticism creates changes. They will listen to the fan, if the fan speaks up. Burying our heads in the sand just leads to more of the same. Fire someone, have the fans get all excited in the offseason, win 40 games, fire someone, get the fans excited...........

We have deeper problems than LB. 40 wins and thinking we are a player away from being a good team is not the method we should take. That way of thinking has led us to drastic overspending and a management team that never puts us into position to obtain the high profile draft pick or free-agent. The true one player that could turn us around.

In my view I am rooting for Zeke. I want him to turn it around right now. But he can no longer commit the mistakes of the past. The mistakes that led to 23 wins. The mistakes that some fans like to pretend don't exist in the name of being a "true fan". Six years ago when Patrick went out it was the time to rebuild. We refused. Then when Isiah came he had the green light to start over. He refused. Now after a 23 win season it appears that he has finally started listening to the fishmikes, tms, allanfan's, NYk4evers, newyorknewyork and some others that have been relentless about changes. 20 wins, 30 wins, 40 wins I don't care. What I care about are changes that lead to long-term success not more excuses, firings and mediocrity.
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Bippity10
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7/20/2006  2:42 PM
Keep going after hungry players. Target college players that truly led their teams to wins, not just making pretty plays. Go after free-agents with a history of defense and team play. Target vets that have won. Leaders that have led. Men.

No more excuse makers. I want players that feel that when they lose it is 100% their fault, even if it isn't. I don't want players that blame systems and coach's. I don't want players that just want to get their numbers. Winning is why you play. Hustle is the only option. If you hate the coach, play hard and complain afterwards. We are in position to finally start moving in the right direction. Isiah can do the right thing and keep us going in that direction or he can make moves to save his job and put us right back where we were. Signing FA's no matter what their style of play, slapping them together and then hiring a high profile coach to somehow put it together. Enough of this nonsense.
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rvhoss
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7/20/2006  2:54 PM
you mean like frye, lee, balkman and mardy collins?
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crzymdups
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7/20/2006  2:55 PM
we have young players now who A) be trusted to play through mistakes and B) improve with experience.
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Bippity10
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7/20/2006  4:31 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

you mean like frye, lee, balkman and mardy collins?

It's a start but it needs to be built upon. Setting our sites on a 40 win season means that Frye, lee and the rest are expendable. why? Because when we win 40 games we look for someone to blame for those 40 wins. We fire them if they don't show us more. So those people abandon their plans and trade the draft picks and the Sweetney's and the Ariza's and the Frye's and the Lee's for another overpaid vet.

I am asking for us to stop building around the Marbs and Francis' of the world. Build around the Frye's and the Lee's and use these vets as space filler. Take away thier power. If they quit on us like they did last year, or make excuses or are insubordinate we don't cowtow to them, we take their playtime away. We show players that this is not tolerable. We don't blame the coach or any one guy. We blame all involved.

Our young guys are a start. But rvhoss pay attention to recent history. We have had draft picks and promising young guys before. But because of the atmosphere of blaming and firings, GM's and coach's trade these guys in order to save their jobs. Don't think Isiah will not do this. His career is on the line. The worst thing we can do is to base his job on wins. It must be based upon developing a plan and sticking with it. This is something he has refused to do. It's time for him to change the the atmosphere here. Create an atmosphere of striving for a title. Not striving for the first round. Not making moves to win today. But making moves that build a team that can win forever. That means getting your promising rookies away from losing, quitting, excuse making vets. Lay down the law. LB is gone. No more excuses will be accepted. One excuse and you don't play. PERIOD.

In summary: Stop making excuses for quitters. They either play hard or we don't want them. As a Knick fan stop accepting the bill of goods being sold and force management to get players that want to play!!!

[Edited by - bippity10 on 07-20-2006 4:33 PM]
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TheGame
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7/20/2006  4:41 PM
The point of saying we can win 40+ games is because that would be realistic target that a team headed in the right direction should be able to achieve. Obviously, that is not the ultimate goal, but you cannot go from 23 wins to title contender in one season, unless you add a Tim Duncan or Lebron James, which we have not. I just want to see the team make significant progress. If the team can win 40+ games, it will evidence that the team can be competitive and that the offensive and defensive system as a whole is not flawed. The next step will be to determine whether the continued growth of Frye, Lee, Nate, Balkman, Curry, Collins, and Crawford will be enough to push the team to 50+ wins, or whether we need to go out and get better players, but you have to take this process in steps, which I know is hard after all the losing seasons, the mistakes Isiah made, and the obvious regression of the team last year.
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EwingsGlass
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7/20/2006  6:04 PM
It is annoying reading this thread
because the GINORMOUS picture in the middle
(of no particular relevance) makes everyone's
text run off the screen and I hate scrolling.
Can we do something about that?
You know I gonna spin wit it
Andrew
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7/20/2006  6:17 PM
Posted by EwingsGlass:

It is annoying reading this thread
because the GINORMOUS picture in the middle
(of no particular relevance) makes everyone's
text run off the screen and I hate scrolling.
Can we do something about that?


Agreed...done.
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misterearl
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7/21/2006  12:22 AM
nyk4ever - Isiah inherited a roster of dreck and you know it

It took the Bulls 7 years of missing the playoffs to regain some form of respect.

The Hawks, with salary cap space, a TRUCKLOAD of forst round picks and roster spots out the yin-yang are STILL trying to figure how to get out the lottery after decades of bad decisions.

Like my boy e sez - The NBA is no picnic in turning around a franchise

You could look it up
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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7/21/2006  12:25 AM
what e said

Because of guaranteed contracts and the salary cap, this is the hardest pro league to turn around a franchise.

It is not as easy as you think.

When was the last time Boston was in a division final? Washington? Seattle?

You have watched the windows of opportunity for the NETS, SIXERS, KINGS, JAZZ and PACERS slowly open and shut over the past ten years now haven't you?

Many of these teams had no salary cap space issues to contend with and good veteran front office personnel in place and still just making the division finals has been elusive.

Get rid of guaranteed contracts and the JEROME JAMES of the NBA world would disappear and building a winner could be done in two seasons just like in the NFL and not take more than a decade to rebound from two or three bad contract signings.

Every sport must endure the inevitable bad signings. But baseball has no cap and the NFL does not guarantee anyone's contract. So you suck ...You're fired!

Not the case in the NBA.

We are still paying JYD's and AH's contracts to date. That's freakin' ridiculous, but it is a fact.

what I say

The Knicks will be respectably better in the win column and play inspired basketball in 07
once a knick always a knick
nyk4ever
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7/21/2006  1:04 AM
Posted by misterearl:

nyk4ever - Isiah inherited a roster of dreck and you know it

It took the Bulls 7 years of missing the playoffs to regain some form of respect.

The Hawks, with salary cap space, a TRUCKLOAD of forst round picks and roster spots out the yin-yang are STILL trying to figure how to get out the lottery after decades of bad decisions.

Like my boy e sez - The NBA is no picnic in turning around a franchise

You could look it up

Isiah inherited the roster and made it worse. It went from 80-something million to now 125 million. Marbury, Francis, Curry, Crawford, Rose, Taylor, Rose, Jerome James. All these guys were added by Isiah. You don't turn a franchise around by giving every player you can huge contracts and trading unprotected lottery 1st round draft picks.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07-21-2006 01:04 AM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Rich
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7/21/2006  1:22 AM
*yawn*
nixluva
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7/21/2006  2:50 AM
OF the players that You mentioned nyk4ever, Isiah only gave Jamal and James a contract the rest were all part of trades. More to the point Jalen and Mo are done this year as will H2O & Shandon's contracts.

Now you have to understand that this team isn't only the big contract players, but a nice bunch of young inexpensive players, who happen to be the future of this team. Don't just complain about bad contracts without mentioning the GOOD things that Isiah has done with this roster. Last season was supposed to have been the start of something new, but that didn't work out. I think we have good reason to feel good about things this coming season. Its not like we don't have players. We've got enough talent to compete with anyone in this league. I'm gonna be looking for you later this year when the team jells and is winning games. I think you're gonna feel stupid about all this bitching about the team.
Bippity10
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7/21/2006  8:45 AM
Posted by TheGame:

The point of saying we can win 40+ games is because that would be realistic target that a team headed in the right direction should be able to achieve. Obviously, that is not the ultimate goal, but you cannot go from 23 wins to title contender in one season, unless you add a Tim Duncan or Lebron James, which we have not. I just want to see the team make significant progress. If the team can win 40+ games, it will evidence that the team can be competitive and that the offensive and defensive system as a whole is not flawed. The next step will be to determine whether the continued growth of Frye, Lee, Nate, Balkman, Curry, Collins, and Crawford will be enough to push the team to 50+ wins, or whether we need to go out and get better players, but you have to take this process in steps, which I know is hard after all the losing seasons, the mistakes Isiah made, and the obvious regression of the team last year.

Noone is saying go from 23 wins to a championship. But our problem has been setting wins as our goal. Our goal should be to build a team capable of winning a title in the long run, not building a team to win 40 games this year, make trades that can win 50 the next and then make trades to win 60 the next. This is what we've been trying to do and this is the reason we have been suffering. We go year to year. GM's and coach's praying that they can put together a team good enough to win enough games this year so they can buy another year's worth of time, then they will worry about who to add the next year. It's short sighted.

Isiah's goal is to win enough games right now to save his job long enough so that he can think about building a team after that. That has been how we've operated since Ewing left. It's not hard to see.

We have a base of players that we can build upon. But NY has had that base before. Unfortunately we normally trade that base away in order to save a job. Here's to praying this is a thing of the past(not likely). It's time for us to stop praying for 40 wins and a playoff spot and build around our young guys. Bring in vets that play hard regardless of the situation. If you look at the talent on this roster it's good enough to win 55 games. But they won't because of the make-up and attitudes. But with that excess talent we will win 40 and be happy. That is not the way to win a title. 30 years people. You are seeing the reasons. You just choose to ignore it because you have settled for less.
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we're going with the same team that won 23 games--we are not winning more than 32
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