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Qyntel for the 3
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JUNKMEIN
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7/16/2006  1:21 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by JUNKMEIN:



You really think 100 million in salaries would have to be cut by Dolan to fit Qyntel and Jackie or are you just being cynical?


I'm saying cutting players ahead of them is a clear sign they would get PT

Aww come on now. I figure you to be a fellow that would prefer to see competition for PT. Let the best man win is the right thing to do....right?
I'm not sensing any balance in your response. Do you believe Jackie and Qyntel (who imo can both ball) are worth the relatively little funds made available by releasing Udoka and buying out Malik?

i'm saying its not a money issue, its a playing time issue. releasing Ime and Malik don't answer the question of playing time at the 3 or 4/5

You have it confused. I said that releasing Udoka and Malik open up the roster spot. From that point why can't they compete for the job....for playing time? I agree that it shouldn't be a money issue (especially concerning Jalen since his contract is where his value will be)
Do you not believe..as I do...that Jackie at the very least can beat out JJ and Qyntel can beat out Q1 and Jalen at the 3? I am cautiously reserving the backup 3 to Balkman (that kid is a swerving dervish of energy)

IMO Jackie could beat out Curry at starting 1 all things being equal. however they are not. too much money and assets invested in Curry and James to play a 21 yr old CBA center ahead of them. Isiah is under enough scrutiny as is.

Qyntel is not a better basketball player than Jalen Rose. he might could beat out Q. neither Rose or Q1 are going to the bench for Woods quietly. Plus Isiah drafted ready to contribute Balkman and we all know the controversy surrounding it. I can't see Isiah not plaing Renaldo.

Hold up now. You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you say it's not about money and now you're saying in the same post that too much money and assests are invested in Curry and James. Much more has been invested in Curry than James. No one would bat an eye if Jackie actually was allowed to challenge Curry and Jerome in a competition. A competition that LB for some strange reason did not allow. Go figure. Jackie comes in and in 1 minute hits 3 straight baskets, get 2 rebounds and one block...and off to the bench with ya.

You and I will have to agree to disagree on Jalen vs Q2. Imo, Qyntel can do things Jalen Rose couldn't dream of. Plus, with PT Q2's jumper could be much more automatic than Jalens. He showed that in the time he played.

[/quote]

In the end its a numbers game. jackie and Q got legit shots at NBA life thanx to NY but now that there in it would seem the opportunity to grow into rotation players and possibly more lies elsewhere for them

[/quote]

This doesn't make any sense as you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. Curry is better than Jackie right now imo. Jalen expires this year, James' contract is not so large to guarantee PT, Udoka, i'm sure you'd agree leaves much much to be desired (cept a roster spot) and Malik...well Malik is Malik.

There's room on the roster for Qyntel and Jackie and it's illogical to think otherwise. It's simple. Two people out takes us to 15 spots meaning Udoka + Malik= Jackie+Qyntel. Jalen + MoT expiring contracts after this year = Jackie + Qyntel Playing time with minimal outlay.
AUTOADVERT
raven
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7/16/2006  1:23 PM
Posted by JUNKMEIN:
Posted by raven:
Posted by JUNKMEIN:

Last season against Philly this guy was totally teeing off on the Sixers

Posted by JUNKMEIN:

LB pulled him out. I recall Marbury screaming out very loudly...no, no don't take him out.



wow, that says a lot don't you think ?

Well i'm assuming you're referring to the irony of Marbury basically openly objecting to and contesting an LB rotation decision. I can see where Marbury's decision could be taken as insubordination. This is true and it definitely shows that there was a major problem with communication last year. If I was in LB's position I wouldn't go for it either.

One thing that there is no debate over is that miscommunication certainly led to our almost record setting 23 wins. The one thing that is a fact is that "we" did indeed set a record with 42 some oddball starting lineups. That can't be explained away with stats or blowhard opinions. It is what it is.

Regardless, i'm 1000% certain that Q2 can become a major baller given on court time. That Philly game convinced me of that...despite LB benching him and Marbury's vocal objection.

Qyntel at the 3.

I think you misunderstood what i was pointing at (no offence at all there). I was thinking about, something was working, and LB made one more time the decision to put an end on it. Like he did when he stopped playing lee while we were on a winning streak.

this is not miscommunication, that's sabotage.

[Edited by - raven on 07-16-2006 1:24 PM]
JUNKMEIN
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7/16/2006  1:24 PM
Posted by JUNKMEIN:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by JUNKMEIN:



You really think 100 million in salaries would have to be cut by Dolan to fit Qyntel and Jackie or are you just being cynical?


I'm saying cutting players ahead of them is a clear sign they would get PT

Aww come on now. I figure you to be a fellow that would prefer to see competition for PT. Let the best man win is the right thing to do....right?
I'm not sensing any balance in your response. Do you believe Jackie and Qyntel (who imo can both ball) are worth the relatively little funds made available by releasing Udoka and buying out Malik?

i'm saying its not a money issue, its a playing time issue. releasing Ime and Malik don't answer the question of playing time at the 3 or 4/5

You have it confused. I said that releasing Udoka and Malik open up the roster spot. From that point why can't they compete for the job....for playing time? I agree that it shouldn't be a money issue (especially concerning Jalen since his contract is where his value will be)
Do you not believe..as I do...that Jackie at the very least can beat out JJ and Qyntel can beat out Q1 and Jalen at the 3? I am cautiously reserving the backup 3 to Balkman (that kid is a swerving dervish of energy)

IMO Jackie could beat out Curry at starting 1 all things being equal. however they are not. too much money and assets invested in Curry and James to play a 21 yr old CBA center ahead of them. Isiah is under enough scrutiny as is.

Qyntel is not a better basketball player than Jalen Rose. he might could beat out Q. neither Rose or Q1 are going to the bench for Woods quietly. Plus Isiah drafted ready to contribute Balkman and we all know the controversy surrounding it. I can't see Isiah not plaing Renaldo.

Hold up now. You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you say it's not about money and now you're saying in the same post that too much money and assests are invested in Curry and James. Much more has been invested in Curry than James. No one would bat an eye if Jackie actually was allowed to challenge Curry and Jerome in a competition. A competition that LB for some strange reason did not allow. Go figure. Jackie comes in and in 1 minute hits 3 straight baskets, get 2 rebounds and one block...and off to the bench with ya.

You and I will have to agree to disagree on Jalen vs Q2. Imo, Qyntel can do things Jalen Rose couldn't dream of. Plus, with PT Q2's jumper could be much more automatic than Jalens. He showed that in the time he played.

In the end its a numbers game. jackie and Q got legit shots at NBA life thanx to NY but now that there in it would seem the opportunity to grow into rotation players and possibly more lies elsewhere for them

[/quote]

This doesn't make any sense as you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. Curry is better than Jackie right now imo. Jalen expires this year, James' contract is not so large to guarantee PT, Udoka, i'm sure you'd agree leaves much much to be desired (cept a roster spot) and Malik...well Malik is Malik.

There's room on the roster for Qyntel and Jackie and it's illogical to think otherwise. It's simple. Two people out takes us to 15 spots meaning Udoka + Malik= Jackie+Qyntel. Jalen + MoT expiring contracts after this year = Jackie + Qyntel Playing time with minimal outlay.
[/quote]

JUNKMEIN
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7/16/2006  1:24 PM
Sorry, double post again
McK1
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7/16/2006  1:41 PM
I'm speaking from multiple perspectives and you're reading it as if I'm talking from one.

* its not about money its about playing time for the two players in queston. the dollars are guaranteed regardless of what organization pays them. IMO the issue from Jackie & Qytel's perspective is minutes.

* as a GM GM/coach of course Isiah likely wants to keep both.

however when the question gets raised by Q2 Jackie and their agents about minutes what can Isiah really guarantee? In SA with Nazr and Rasho gone, the minutes at 5 are DEFINITELY there for Jackie.

Q2 has yet to sign anyhere but its the same dilemna. Regardless of how sweet it sounds, there is absolutely no way Isiah Qyntel or his AGENT can ignore Q1 Jalen Renaldo and possibly Lee all vying for the minutes at 3.

If I'm Q2 or Jackie, I wanna play and walking is the clearer path to PT

If I'm Isiah I at the most seek a s&t for them but I don't want disgruntled players and disgruntled player agents in my backyard at this point.

* finally the mention of salaries

IMO Dolan wants tangible results for

what they gave up for Curry and

what they are paying James and

assuming Q's uninsured contract (and watching him play only 55 games b/c of his back) etc etc

and now he can't put the onus on the coach


[Edited by - McK1 on 07-16-2006 1:47 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
JUNKMEIN
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7/16/2006  2:16 PM
[/quote]Posted by McK1:

I'm speaking from multiple perspectives and you're reading it as if I'm talking from one.
[/quote]
I'm just reading "your" post man. I'm assuming that i'm speaking to one person that's giving their opinion. Your opinion at a certain point was contradictory. No problem, I was only trying to understand what you were saying.

[/quote]* its not about money its about playing time for the two players in queston. the dollars are guaranteed regardless of what organization pays them. IMO the issue from Jackie & Qytel's perspective is minutes.
[/quote]

Alright, then you and I agree it's not about the money. We disagree that they should be allowed to compete for the job...right? I feel they should be allowed to compete and you....uhh, I think you think they should be allowed to compete. I'm not sure what you're saying.

[/quote]* as a GM GM/coach of course Isiah likely wants to keep both.
[/quote]

No doubt about it.

[/quote]however when the question gets raised by Q2 Jackie and their agents about minutes what can Isiah really guarantee? In SA with Nazr and Rasho gone, the minutes at 5 are DEFINITELY there for Jackie.
[/quote]

He can guarantee that they will get ample opportunity to compete for starting spots. Q2 especially.

[/quote]Q2 has yet to sign anyhere but its the same dilemna. Regardless of how sweet it sounds, there is absolutely no way Isiah Qyntel or his AGENT can ignore Q1 Jalen Renaldo and possibly Lee all vying for the minutes at 3.
[/quote]

Okay, I can agree that it's crowded at the 4 and 5 spot but at the 3 we suck. Jalen and Q1 would get roasted most nights by a good number of the 3's in the league (Vince, Pierce in our division come to mind). There's no logical reason that if they're back with us they shouldn't be allowed to compete for playing time.

[/quote]If I'm Q2 or Jackie, I wanna play and walking is the clearer path to PT
[/quote]

Depends on the situation. I haven't heard of anyone beating down Qyntels door. Jackie apparently turned down more money from one team and is only open to the Spurs. He did this (turned down more money) knowing that the Knicks could match so it's obviously not purely about playing time (or else he would have forced the Knicks hand). I think you're underestimating the relationships Jackie has developed here (i.e. younguns and Aguirre).

[/quote]If I'm Isiah I at the most seek a s&t for them but I don't want disgruntled players and disgruntled player agents in my backyard at this point.
[/quote]


* finally the mention of salaries

IMO Dolan wants tangible results for

what they gave up for Curry and

what they are paying James and

assuming Q's uninsured contract (and watching him play only 55 games b/c of his back) etc etc

and now he can't put the onus on the coach

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-16-2006 1:47 PM]
[/quote]

So it's not about the money from Zeke's position, it's about money for Dolan's position...is that what you're saying? I can agree with that if that's what you're saying. Having said that I feel like Zeke is gonna give himself the best chance to win and letting Q2 and JB walk will only hurt him.
TMS
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7/16/2006  7:18 PM
it won't be the end of the world if the Knicks don't retain Qyntel... what role is he going to play afterall as long as Jalen, Q Rich, Balkman & Lee are all getting minutes at the 3 position? if Isiah does a deal to unload Jalen or Q Rich, then keeping Qyntel makes all the sense in the world, but right now he's going to be a player on the inactive list as long as those other guys are still on the roster imho, whether that's deserved or not... i don't think Jalen or Q Rich will be relegated to IR duty... Isiah's going to want to showcase them both for potential deals down the road... plus, let's not forget the obvious stumbling block which is available roster space... if they re-sign Jackie B, they have no more roster spots to retain Qyntel unles they make a 2 for 1 type deal.
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Bonn1997
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7/16/2006  7:36 PM
Posted by TMS:

it won't be the end of the world if the Knicks don't retain Qyntel... what role is he going to play afterall as long as Jalen, Q Rich, Balkman & Lee are all getting minutes at the 3 position?

If Isiah is smart, he'll play Qyntel ahead of all those players maybe except Lee. Most people will probably stop reading that sentence after the fourth word, though!
TMS
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7/16/2006  7:47 PM
i'd rather see Balkan get minutes at this point than Qyntel... we need guys who can make a real impact on defense, not another athletic scorer.
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Bonn1997
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7/16/2006  7:58 PM
Posted by TMS:

i'd rather see Balkan get minutes at this point than Qyntel... we need guys who can make a real impact on defense, not another athletic scorer.

I guess. Qyntel has the right body to be an above average defensive player though. I think he's capable of playing min at the 2, though, and I actually like him more than any backup SG we have.
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7/16/2006  8:00 PM
Posted by TMS:

i'd rather see Balkan get minutes at this point than Qyntel... we need guys who can make a real impact on defense, not another athletic scorer.

I fully agree. If this team is going to go anywhere, they need to play defense. For me, it's not a question of how many points can the Knicks score in this new offense, it's how many points can the Knicks hold opposing teams to. Balkman seems like he could probably hold his own on defense at the 3 in this league and the Knicks need other players in the starting lineup to follow suit.

If Isiah can't get these guys to play defense then the Knicks won't be any closer to winning a championship than they were this year.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07-16-2006 8:01 PM]
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Bonn1997
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7/16/2006  8:07 PM
Fine. Then waive Jalen and give his roster spot and SF minutes to Qyntel. It's better than using Jalen's expiring contract on someone owed $400 mil in salary! And we get to keep a fairly young player who's shown some amazing promise. Do you really think Isiah's gonna get someone better and at a more reasonable salary with Jalen's exp. contract? I'd even waive Q Rich before losing Q Woods.
TMS
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7/16/2006  8:10 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

i'd rather see Balkan get minutes at this point than Qyntel... we need guys who can make a real impact on defense, not another athletic scorer.

I guess. Qyntel has the right body to be an above average defensive player though. I think he's capable of playing min at the 2, though, and I actually like him more than any backup SG we have.

it's not having the right body that makes a good defender, it's having the right instincts... Chris Childs was an excellent on ball defender & he had a doughboy's body... Charlie Ward was good at playing team defense & he wasn't exactly physically gifted either... it's more the mindset than anything else... Balkman seems to have that... Qyntel, for all his physical gifts, just seems to space out on the court at times & his perimeter shot is way too erratic to justify giving him minutes over a guy Isiah just picked w/the 1st round pick this year... you must see what you have in Balkman this year... unless we get rid of Jalen Rose or Q Rich, i don't see a role for Qyntel at all unfortunately... it's just the reality of the situation... you also can't play Qyntel at the 2 over Francis & Crawford either... he's the odd man out right now unless they can open up a roster space through some other means (maybe a trade w.a team under the cap of someone like Nate for a 1st rounder in next year's draft, which would solve a couple of issues in 1 fell swoop)
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Bonn1997
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7/16/2006  8:37 PM
unless we get rid of Jalen Rose or Q Rich
Then there's no problem! (See previous post.) Or at least there *should* be no problem.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 07-16-2006 8:38 PM]
JUNKMEIN
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7/16/2006  10:29 PM
Let me say it again for all to hear. We stink at the 3.

I don't get it TMS. Do you think Jalen and QRich are adequate at the swing position? If not then what would be your hesitation for allowing Qyntel to compete for PT? Do you think Jalen and QRich are competitive with the swing players in our division? I'd say they rank at the bottom.

I've already shown where the roster space for both Jackie and Qyntel is simple and inexpensive to come by. We'll know about Jackie by Wednesday (upon which time Udoka can be released). After that a decision can be made about a roster spot being made available for Qyntel (upon which time we can buy out Malik). This is simple to do and we don't have to get rid of our expirings to get it done.

Am I imagining things.

Jalen...who I respect...QRich...who I also respect...are both on the lower shelf compared to the other 3's around the league (Jalen's more effective at the point). There are not many great defenders at the 3 in the league (1) i.e. Artest, T Prince, etc). The other great swing players in the league that are not total lockdown defenders make up for it on the offensive side (2) Kobe, Carter, Lebron, Carmelo, etc.) QRich and Jalen fit neither of those descriptions. We hope Balkman fits the defender role.

Qyntel has the ability to be an adequate defender and an above average scorer (description no. 2). Let this kid compete for a job.
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

i'd rather see Balkan get minutes at this point than Qyntel... we need guys who can make a real impact on defense, not another athletic scorer.

I guess. Qyntel has the right body to be an above average defensive player though. I think he's capable of playing min at the 2, though, and I actually like him more than any backup SG we have.

it's not having the right body that makes a good defender, it's having the right instincts... Chris Childs was an excellent on ball defender & he had a doughboy's body... Charlie Ward was good at playing team defense & he wasn't exactly physically gifted either... it's more the mindset than anything else... Balkman seems to have that... Qyntel, for all his physical gifts, just seems to space out on the court at times & his perimeter shot is way too erratic to justify giving him minutes over a guy Isiah just picked w/the 1st round pick this year... you must see what you have in Balkman this year... unless we get rid of Jalen Rose or Q Rich, i don't see a role for Qyntel at all unfortunately... it's just the reality of the situation... you also can't play Qyntel at the 2 over Francis & Crawford either... he's the odd man out right now unless they can open up a roster space through some other means (maybe a trade w.a team under the cap of someone like Nate for a 1st rounder in next year's draft, which would solve a couple of issues in 1 fell swoop)



[Edited by - Junkmein on 07-16-2006 10:31 PM]
Bonn1997
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7/16/2006  10:37 PM
Great post Junkmein. We really have a garbage team at the 3 except for David Lee who isn't really a 3 and maybe Balkman whom I've never seen play an NBA game.
TMS
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7/16/2006  10:46 PM
Junkmein, this has nothing to do w/what anyone, not you, Bonn, myself or anyone else for that matter thinks about who should be getting playing time at the 3, other than Isiah Thomas... the simple fact of the matter is, he needs to get some value out of Jalen Rose & Q Rich, & that will only come w/giving them playing time... he didn't bring those guys here so they can languish on the bench & collect their paychecks & diminish their own trade value in the process (at least, that's not going to be his intention... whether those guys perform or not this season remains to be seen, but he's going to at least give them a chance to prove it before he inserts Qyntel into the starting rotation, you can pretty much bet on it.

look, if it were up to me personally, i'd tell jalen to get lost, sign Qyntel & have him, Balkman & Q Rich battle it out during training camp... doesn't matter what i want or any of the rest of you want, all that matters is what Isiah's going to do, & logic dictates that he's not going to pay these guys these bloated contracts w/o at least trying to see if he can get some production out of them.
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Bonn1997
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7/16/2006  10:51 PM
look, if it were up to me personally, i'd tell jalen to get lost, sign Qyntel & have him, Balkman & Q Rich battle it out during training camp... doesn't matter what i want or any of the rest of you want, all that matters is what Isiah's going to do, & logic dictates that he's not going to pay these guys these bloated contracts w/o at least trying to see if he can get some production out of them.
Then I think we have identical views. I think Isiah will do exactly what you think he will. Let Q Woods go and play and showcase J. Rose. That won't stop me from heavily criticizing Isiah, which I've already begun to do because it looks like he has no interest in re-signing Q Woods. Based on past transactions, I suspect the player Isiah gets in a Rose trade (the very reason he didn't have room for Woods) will be inferior to Woods and paid more than Woods.
JUNKMEIN
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7/16/2006  11:06 PM
Posted by TMS:

Junkmein, this has nothing to do w/what anyone, not you, Bonn, myself or anyone else for that matter thinks about who should be getting playing time at the 3, other than Isiah Thomas... the simple fact of the matter is, he needs to get some value out of Jalen Rose & Q Rich, & that will only come w/giving them playing time... he didn't bring those guys here so they can languish on the bench & collect their paychecks & diminish their own trade value in the process (at least, that's not going to be his intention... whether those guys perform or not this season remains to be seen, but he's going to at least give them a chance to prove it before he inserts Qyntel into the starting rotation, you can pretty much bet on it.

Jalen's value as I stated earlier is in his expiring contract. If he doens't touch the floor it doesn't matter. Same for MoT (see Penny). In fact if Isiah were to trade another expiring contract for another overpriced player (ala JJ) then people would raze MSG to the ground.

I thought the sentiment around here was to work towards getting under the cap for 2009/2010 and just letting the expirings...well expire. So, I don't get what you're saying should be a simple fact of logic for Isiah to be considering.
Posted by TMS:

look, if it were up to me personally, i'd tell jalen to get lost, sign Qyntel & have him, Balkman & Q Rich battle it out during training camp... doesn't matter what i want or any of the rest of you want, all that matters is what Isiah's going to do, & logic dictates that he's not going to pay these guys these bloated contracts w/o at least trying to see if he can get some production out of them.

Well of course what we, you or I want has no bearing on the situation. We're just speculating as fans.

Again, it's not necessary to tell Jalen to get lost. Simply let Jalen, QRich, Balkman and Qyntel compete for the 3. It's not rocket science.
TMS
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7/16/2006  11:14 PM
talk to me after u see what Isiah does to start the season... if Qyntel is in the starting lineup or even playing ahead of Jalen Rose, i'd be extremely shocked.
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