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blkexec
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7/13/2006  11:51 PM
What if your coaching / talent acquisition staff say Balkman will be selected by Phoenix at 21. And if they were trying to through a smoke screen just to get Marcus Williams, then I would be like damn, we f'ed up. But, what did Phoenix do.....Not only pass on Marcus as well, but traded their draft rights to another team for a future pick.

That should tell you something. Balkman was on other teams radar between 20 and 29. And if Balkman is the man that fits our system more than anybody else they scouted, then you don't take that chance, and pass on a talented role player, when he what we need.

I think Zeke did the best he could do, with the information he had on the other teams drafting strategies.....Again, what if we drafted Marcus, and B-man wasn't there at 29? Now who's the fool? Since yall have all the GM drafting skills, answer that question.....Exactly, stop hating on Isiah, and lets hope he can turn this season around....

Go Knicks....2006....the day Isaiah was smart with his draft picks and selected two solid role players, who does not have to dribble the ball a hundred times to be affective.....
Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
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Solace
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7/14/2006  12:31 AM
I'm happy to have this talented second rounder on the team. At the #42 pick, I like the pick. At #20, I don't. Isiah has a history of overpaying, so once again, bingo.
Market value? 4 yrs about $5 mil for Renaldo. Nothing wrong with that value! It's better value than spending several mil to pay Marcus to spend his 4 yrs in prison for stealing more property!

Spin alert! ... or maybe you were kidding. Unless Marcus goes to jail, I think your argument is pretty silly. Unless you're implying that he'd only have a shot of going to jail if he was a Knick, in which case I'd probably agree with you.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Anji
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7/14/2006  12:31 AM
LOst in all this,"I know balkman would have been there" the suns quietly go after Salmon and Jeffries, two defenders that don't shoot well at all..... Please.

If you say your are fine with the pick then that should be all that matters.
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
nykshaknbake
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7/14/2006  12:57 AM
I like the pick but think we overpaid for it as well. I think you really gotta go w/ the BPA at that point too(Williams). Rookies can't fill holes satisfactorily untill a few seasons in si drafting for need is kinda risky in a sense.
oohah
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7/14/2006  1:28 AM
Actually I used this almost same argument-and researched it- to prove my point in another thread. My point in that thread was it is better to pick up a guy that slipped as opposed to reaching for a guy way before he is slated to go. I looked it up-I went back to the '95 draft and took it up to 2000-I had to go to work and never got back to it- and found around 32 guys who fell/slipped that were better players now than they were in relation to when they were drafted. I grant you that some guys just worked harder to get where they are-but most of these guys that I listed were slated to go higher than they were drafted and fell. The rate of success for guys that drop/slip in the draft is greater than the rate of success for guys that are reached for ahead of guys that were ranked higher than them.

But I do have to admit the whole premise of this argument is a little weird because these guys that slipped were better players than guys that were reached for-which is why they were ranked higher in the first place.

I'm happy to have this talented second rounder on the team. At the #42 pick, I like the pick. At #20, I don't. Isiah has a history of overpaying, so once again, bingo.

I like the pick but think we overpaid for it as well. I think you really gotta go w/ the BPA at that point too(Williams). Rookies can't fill holes satisfactorily untill a few seasons in si drafting for need is kinda risky in a sense.

Here is what I don't understand about the whole "We could have picked him later" or "We overpaid" argument:

If he turns out to be a good player, who cares where he was picked?

For example, Manu Ginobli was picked number 58 in the draft. If the Spurs had picked Ginobli in the first round instead of the 58th pick, did that mean they overpaid for him because they could have picked him later?

If a bunch of players dropped and ended up being good players it means they should have been picked earlier, simple as that.

I don't see the sense in not picking the player you want because you think you can pick him later. In fact, I would consider that to be foolish.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
fishmike
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7/14/2006  7:31 AM
Posted by oohah:
Actually I used this almost same argument-and researched it- to prove my point in another thread. My point in that thread was it is better to pick up a guy that slipped as opposed to reaching for a guy way before he is slated to go. I looked it up-I went back to the '95 draft and took it up to 2000-I had to go to work and never got back to it- and found around 32 guys who fell/slipped that were better players now than they were in relation to when they were drafted. I grant you that some guys just worked harder to get where they are-but most of these guys that I listed were slated to go higher than they were drafted and fell. The rate of success for guys that drop/slip in the draft is greater than the rate of success for guys that are reached for ahead of guys that were ranked higher than them.

But I do have to admit the whole premise of this argument is a little weird because these guys that slipped were better players than guys that were reached for-which is why they were ranked higher in the first place.

I'm happy to have this talented second rounder on the team. At the #42 pick, I like the pick. At #20, I don't. Isiah has a history of overpaying, so once again, bingo.

I like the pick but think we overpaid for it as well. I think you really gotta go w/ the BPA at that point too(Williams). Rookies can't fill holes satisfactorily untill a few seasons in si drafting for need is kinda risky in a sense.

Here is what I don't understand about the whole "We could have picked him later" or "We overpaid" argument:

If he turns out to be a good player, who cares where he was picked?

For example, Manu Ginobli was picked number 58 in the draft. If the Spurs had picked Ginobli in the first round instead of the 58th pick, did that mean they overpaid for him because they could have picked him later?

If a bunch of players dropped and ended up being good players it means they should have been picked earlier, simple as that.

I don't see the sense in not picking the player you want because you think you can pick him later. In fact, I would consider that to be foolish.

oohah
well thats where the shortsighted Knicks and Isiah come in. Ginobli is poor example because there wasnt a player who every scout touted as a lottery pick sitting on the board in front of him. But by that same logic what if Manu was selected in a different year and it cost them Tony Parker? Whould that have mattered? Would you still like Manu? Would that have changed the path of that franchise?

What are you saying? How you use your assets doesnt matter so long as you like what you got?

Ever hear of something in business called the cost of lost opportunity?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
rvhoss
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7/14/2006  8:59 AM
this is the point where I go "waaaaaaa"

It just doesn't make sense unless you knew for an absolute FACT that the suns were not going to take balkman AND you know williams will be successfull.

One scenario has a life time to pan out (see briggs and bynum) the other is impossible to prove.

But Balkman was the perfect pick for our needs, we are built for defense at the 3 and multiple looks in front and in back.

Jrose, QRich and Balkman are all good defenders at the wing.

We have enough shooters and you guys already know zeke can't trade, so I'd rather draft on need (in the two previous drafts he went BPA) and looking at last years first round draft picks, he filled in the cracks around those picks.

He drafted a starting 5 in the last 2 first rounds.

That's impressive.
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McK1
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7/14/2006  9:09 AM
Posted by Rich:

He needs to start pumping iron and put on some weight.

exactly.

he's 200lbs. most starting 3's in the East are 225-230

unless the plan is to play him defensively at off-guard but then he can only play in a lineup with Q or Lee gor maybe Mardy guarding the 3. making sense out of the rotation will be a job in itself, let alone actually trying to manage the game. Isiah better pray Steph can be what he hasn't for his last 5 coaches - a head on the court.

I fear teams are going to exploit the fact that there are so many "options" and it'll be another season of well on paper vs what plays out from the clipboard to the hardwood to the standings.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
BRIGGS
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7/14/2006  10:44 AM
Lets hope Balkman is a good Knick for a long time.

That doesnt or likely never change my opinion that the BEST long term draft picks for the Knicks in the last two years were Andrew Bynum and Marcus Williams. Pick 20 this year was a no-brainer because we had pick 29. This is our hand and lets work with it.
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rvhoss
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7/14/2006  10:46 AM
absolutely, williamsn was the BPA, but I'm pretty positive that frye and balkman will produce in the next 3 years far more than bynum and williams.

is there a way to measure this, or are these just our opinions?
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fishmike
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7/14/2006  10:54 AM
RV... I would have no problem with your arguement, except that it happens with every Isiah transaction. If it was once who cares? I think the only trade/signing in his tenure that Isiah actually took advantage of a situation was the KT trade, where he used Q's attitude to get a first rounder. Aside from that we are always getting fleeced. We always overpay. We always help other teams get FAR better than ever do with these trades and signings.

But thats cool... WAAAA sounds familiar. I'm sure you did plenty of that last year after predicting a 2nd round showing. Isiah has that effect on people. Waaa for you, puke for me. You just have more denial than I do :)
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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7/14/2006  10:57 AM
Posted by rvhoss:

absolutely, williamsn was the BPA, but I'm pretty positive that frye and balkman will produce in the next 3 years far more than bynum and williams.

is there a way to measure this, or are these just our opinions?
who's opinions do you value? Forget about mine or Briggs, read any draft preview. God out and find one and tell me where they had Marcus Williams. Now if you want to say everyone that writes basketball analysis on the internet is wrong, fine... but thats what you would be saying.

I like Balkman's style and like EVERYONE else around here hope he's good player for a long time for us. This is about getting a GM that can simply do better.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BRIGGS
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7/14/2006  11:02 AM
Posted by rvhoss:

absolutely, williamsn was the BPA, but I'm pretty positive that frye and balkman will produce in the next 3 years far more than bynum and williams.

is there a way to measure this, or are these just our opinions?

Balkman is a role player. If Jason Kidd went down, Marcus William could sustain the NJ Nets with his skills NOW. He's as good as ANY NBA PG in terms of passing the ball, seeing the floor and getting the team into position to score in the halfcourt right now.

Bynum is already showing remarkable improvement to the point now where he is covered by double and triple teams in the SL. He was asked to work on his passing skills out of the triangle in his last game and came up with 6 assists from the 5 position. He has shown to be the best shot blocker this summer, hes put up 25 points in a game, 15 rebounds, 5 blocks. he has all the skills and hes only 18 7-2 290. Right now its just a waiting game its a when not if. I dont think Channing frye has his upside, but Channing sure is the better player NOW.
RIP Crushalot😞
rvhoss
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7/14/2006  11:04 AM
this has nothing to do with a GM that can simply do better.

trust me. you are looking for a GM to wave his magic wand and in 2 years contend.

Our GM has us competitive in 3 years...you really need to not only stop posting about LB (which you already have) but you also have to forget last year ever happened.

Because last year was a coach nowhere near on the same page as management and the team.

he said all the right things, but that's LB, he always SAYS all the right things. But actions spoke louder than his words.

what other gm has a better track record in the same amount of time?

Once you answer that, then you have found your dream GM.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 07-14-2006 11:04 AM]
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fishmike
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7/14/2006  11:08 AM
what other gm has a better track record in the same amount of time?
heres one
http://www.hoopshype.com/general_managers/john_paxson.htm
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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7/14/2006  11:09 AM
look at his first two years...

http://www.hoopshype.com/general_managers/rod_thorn.htm
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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7/14/2006  11:16 AM
Our GM has us competitive in 3 years...
last I checked the closest thing we were to competitve was first year here, when we still had guys like KT, Deke and Dolehack. Since then we have gotten worse every year.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
rvhoss
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7/14/2006  11:20 AM
rod thorn I will give you, but you aren't getting john paxson. this year is the make or break for him.

I'd take joe dumars, but hey, he's black, doesn't qualify for your list.

http://www.hoopshype.com/general_managers/joe_dumars.htm

exec of the year his third year.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 07-14-2006 11:21 AM]
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oohah
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7/14/2006  12:23 PM
well thats where the shortsighted Knicks and Isiah come in. Ginobli is poor example because there wasnt a player who every scout touted as a lottery pick sitting on the board in front of him.

Actually, whether or not Balkman, Williams, or anyone else was considered a lottery pick is irrelevant. Also, I don't know that every scout had Williams as a lottery pick considering the Knicks were only one of 21 teams that passed up on him.
But by that same logic what if Manu was selected in a different year and it cost them Tony Parker? Whould that have mattered? Would you still like Manu? Would that have changed the path of that franchise?

I don't think that is by the same logic.

But you bring up a good point: Tony Parker was a player that everyone went "Huh, who?" when he was picked at number 28. I'm pretty sure that the Spurs could have gotten him 10-20-30 spots later in the draft. I guess the Spurs overpaid for him since they could have gotten him later in the draft?

Is a pick only a good value if you get the player at the last possible moment they are available? What happens when somebody else snatches up your man?

What are you saying? How you use your assets doesnt matter so long as you like what you got?

I don't understand the question. Let me restate my point. To say "we could have picked Balkman later" or "We overpaid for him" is dubious. If he is picked 20 or 40 it doesn't matter. What matters is if one is able to pick the player they want when they have their chance.

Ever hear of something in business called the cost of lost opportunity

Actually I haven't. If you would explain it to me and how it applies to the Balkman pick I would be most appreciative.

***

Maybe they could have picked Balkman #60. Does that matter if he becomes a good player?

oohah




Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Masterplan
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7/14/2006  12:37 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

our opportunity cost (the difference between what we did and the most attractive alternative) could be as high as a first round pick. as in, we pick marcus. some team with only a second rounder and a hole at the PG calls us up desperate. we trade marcus for balkman (picked in the mid 2nd round) and maybe a future #1. if marcus is really lottery talent, it's not that farfetched.

to be fair, IT probably gets slammed either way, either for passing on or trading away marcus. at least this way he has another pick to play with. unless he knows he's gone this summer and doesn't care
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