Posted by crzymdups:

Steph, with his physical tools, could have been the greatest PG of all time. It's sort of a tragedy.

Even though I'm a Brown guy, I've stated this (well...maybe not the greatest but definately HOF material) for a VERY long time-including all of this season.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 07-09-2006 12:15 AM]

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by nixluva:

I really don't know what you guys are talking about. Steph hasn't been the one who has come up small during his stint here. Try looking at the other positions on the floor. Guys like TT and QRich, who've come here and done HORRIBLY and it had NOTHING to do with Steph. H2O being injured also payed a huge role as did the many changes Isiah has made. WHen has Steph had a real chance to settle into a groove with a lineup? When has he had a SG and SF anywhere close to dependable? We just now got a couple of guys who MIGHT be studs at PF and C, but we have to wait and see how they develop. I personally don't think Steph has done anything near as bad as so many seem to think. He's steadily taken fewer shots since he's gotten here and he almost always starts the game looking for his teammates, despite all the media lies that he's all about himself. His highest scoring qtr has been the 3rd so obviously he's been looking for teammates more during the other qtrs. If he's allowed to do what he can do, like other star guards who have the green light you'll see just how great he really is. I think Isiah is gonna allow that this year and no the team won't suffer because of it. Just think of how he played during the streak before he got hurt and that's what kind of player we're talking about.

Steph is a better player with more potential (save for TT-maybe)than the players you mentioned. If by "giving Steph a green light" you mean-let him do what he has always done and not try to improve his game-which he hasn't done noticably in years-yeah, we'll see the same player we've seen the past 10 years-same strengths and weaknesses.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 07-09-2006 12:13 AM]

NO that's not what i'm talking about at ALL!!! See unlike guys like YOU, i've been paying attention to how he's played over his career. Do you really think that the losing has been STEPH'S FAULT? When he's had decent teams around him he's done well. He didn't lose in Minny. He helped them to their 1st success as a franchise. He had NOTHING in NJ and they had TONS of injuries. This isn't an excuse its a FACT! Go look it up. In PHX they had one bad year and one good year and the 3rd year we'll never know cuz Amare got hurt and PHX made a great business decision to offload Steph's and Penny's huge contracts. At that time they had NO IDEA they'd end up with Nash, so don't try to make it seem like they had this great plan. It was a salary cap move that paid off when Dallas inexplicably let Nash go.

When Steph got here he was playing great and until the KVH and Doleac trades he was playing up to his potential and setting up teammates. He ended up avg'ing 9 assists, but he would've been higher had the trades not happened. That was an adjustment that set things back a bit. Imagine how this team would've looked with a healthy H2O and STeph? You can't tell me that he wouldn't have been spectacular in that situation. Its interesting that his performance looked similar during the streak this year when he played his game and had a SET LINEUP for a change.

There's been too much change and too many injuries to key players during his career. Too many coaches and too many rosters. NOW we have a chance for the last years of his career to see him play with the same team for a while. I'm hoping we'll see that great player return.

I said nothing about him being responsible for losing. Read it again. I concentrated soley on his individual game. Reading is phundamental(please get this joke).

Bro, Steph is a good player who can be great. He is not a great player-but he can be. Take the fan hands off his crotch a minute and look at the facts. He has not noticably ever improved any part of his game(and the only real part he had to work on since 97-98 was his defense) for 9 freaking years. He could have improved his 3 point shooting too, but I guess that's just nitpicking to you.

The great ones add a new wrinkle every year. Alway improve. Even Jordan improved on thing every year throughout his career. Spent the off season concentrating on one area and improviong it. Steph hasn't done that in 9 years!

AS a side not this sentence:

See unlike guys like YOU, i've been paying attention to how he's played over his career.

Is stupid, pompous and arrogant. Yohave no idea my experience with basketball so get off the high horse.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 07-09-2006 12:38 AM]

Do you REALLY have a firm handle on Steph's career? This is the part that I was speaking to. Not your general knowledge of the game. You see i've had MANY debates about Steph's game over the years on other forums and here and I don't recall ever debating with you about the finer points of his game or his career up to this point.

I absolutely loved Steph during his one year at GT. I always wanted him to be a Knick. I followed him at Minny, and was utterly dissappointed he was traded to NJ-and I couldn't believe my ears when he actually said that freaking airplane hanger with fake crowd noise they played in at the time was comparable to MSG. He was always an extreme as long as I can remember who just didn't know when to shut up. He was a big part of PHX winning (and almost beating the Spurs in the playoffs and was also a major distraction after he signed he contract in his first season under D'Antoni.

Don't give me this crap about a player adding something new to his game. Have you been watching every game he's played even before he got to NY? It seems hard for me to believe that you did.

We are not talking about every player, we are talking about Steph. I don't need to watch every player, all I need to watch is Steph to make my opinion in this conversation relevant.

What I do know is he's been taking fewer shots per game and clearly looking to setup his teammates more since he got here.

To his and the team's detriment. His first season here, when we played NJ in the playoffs, he should have looked to score more considering he was our only REAL scoring option. He also is apparently very uncomfortable not using his scoring to set up his passing.

If we had any decent shooting his efforts would've been more evident.

Steph had shooters everywhere he went since Minny. he had some shooters that complimented him when he got here (KVH was a very good shooter), Doleac was a dependable shooter, Isiah never replaced Allan when he should have at least gotten a low priced replacement. Weatherspoon and Harrington were decent from mid-range...not great but dependable.

Until this year he was getting to the line more and I believe there was no need to change his game. By not taking 3's I believe it was detrimental to his game.

Point me in the direction where I said change his game. I said IMPROVE ASPECTS of his game. There is a very big difference. That is how players get better. They improve parts of their game.

By not taking 3's I believe it was detrimental to his game. The year before last he was shooting 46% and 35% from 3.

You are wrong. Dead wrong. He shot .317% last year from 3. The year before he shot .354. The season he got here, he shot .318(.321 in NY, .314 in PHX). Highest he ever shot was .367 in NJ in '99. His 10 yr average is 32%.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/marbust01.html

The only thing stopping him from being considered a great player is wins.

Plent of great players have been considered great wthout wins. Garnett is one. Vince Carter another. TMac another. Paul Pierce. Wins is not what is holding Steph's reputation back. Steph has been put in better situations to win than guys like Pierce, TMac, and before he came to NJ-Carter.

Now that the team has a chance to settle down and develop some chemistry, I expect that the win totals over the next few years will increase and he won't have to carry so much of the load.

I expect the same.

Which so many other great players don't have to do, which helps them to look so darned good in the first place.

What? What makes players great is they do carry their teams. Players that don't carry their teams are called role players. Great players have role players who compliment their talents and cover for their weaknesses. What makes great players truly great is they are looked upon as leaders. They are the captains of the ship. Thy calm the storm. Steph has done that once-the series against SA. He is usually the cause of the storm on every team he has gone to.

That SA series, Steph played up to his potential and he was simply unstoppable. Do I expect that every game? It would be nice, but that is just not who he is. Do I hope he can put everything together-absolutely. DO I expect him too? I expect him to at least average his career avgs.


[Edited by - joec32033 on 07-09-2006 08:01 AM]

good video to let the rest of knicskdom know steph has not given up and the return of starbury is eminent.

hey... i'll be happy just to see star take the towel off his head, play in a system he believes in, and putting our knicks in a win situation.