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Thomas Sets a New Goal for the Knicks: The Playoffs (nyt article)
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joec32033
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7/7/2006  10:58 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:

So reporters were allowed to watch the Knicks closed practices all last season? So how is he coming up with that observation? Oh yeah, Isiah told him.

Well I guess the bar has been set. Isiah obviously thinks that this team is good enough to make the playoffs. So make the playoffs or get the Phuck out.

betcha he gets closer to the playoffs than Brown. and I'm sure that he made the observation purely from speaking with Isiah today, despite following the team all of last season. Isiah's interview is on msg for download. he went out of his way not to mention Brown.

Bro, I'ma grauntee that this team gets closer to the playoffs this year than Brown. I'll also garauntee that in 3 years this team will be worse off than if Brown stayed.

I really don't know about that. Think about it: Brown was going to be here for three, four years MAX. He probably knew he couldn't build the young kids into a championship squad in that time and probably would have been willing to pawn off the young pieces to build a veteran squad that had a chance to MAYBE get to one Finals or conf. Finals. I'm sure folks would have congratulated Brown on a job well done, but I'd rather see where our two 6'11" 23yr olds and other talented youth can take us in the next 5 years.

Even if Brown was only here for 3 years, I think he would have instilled a work ethic and knowledge in our guys that Isiah just won't. I'm not going to fool myself into thinking he is a long term coach he isn't, but the way he devlops players is a very long term effect he would have had on this team.
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crzymdups
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7/7/2006  11:07 AM
Posted by joec32033:

Even if Brown was only here for 3 years, I think he would have instilled a work ethic and knowledge in our guys that Isiah just won't. I'm not going to fool myself into thinking he is a long term coach he isn't, but the way he devlops players is a very long term effect he would have had on this team.

again, I'm not sure. I think our three rooks from last year are all very high character guys. the fact that they spoke out about Brown and that it's now being reported that he didn't drill defense and we already know that he didn't speak to the players directly about moving in and out of the lineup. I mean, it REALLY sounds like Brown was mailing it in.
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joec32033
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7/7/2006  11:12 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:

Even if Brown was only here for 3 years, I think he would have instilled a work ethic and knowledge in our guys that Isiah just won't. I'm not going to fool myself into thinking he is a long term coach he isn't, but the way he devlops players is a very long term effect he would have had on this team.

again, I'm not sure. I think our three rooks from last year are all very high character guys. the fact that they spoke out about Brown and that it's now being reported that he didn't drill defense and we already know that he didn't speak to the players directly about moving in and out of the lineup. I mean, it REALLY sounds like Brown was mailing it in.

I don't know if I believe anything coming out of either camp. But even Mo Taylor came out and defended Brown recently. All I know is there is alot of untruth everywhere. I can honestly even say the theory about what the rookies said being MSG propaganda is not that unbelieveable given the current situation.
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nyk4ever
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7/7/2006  11:15 AM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:

Even if Brown was only here for 3 years, I think he would have instilled a work ethic and knowledge in our guys that Isiah just won't. I'm not going to fool myself into thinking he is a long term coach he isn't, but the way he devlops players is a very long term effect he would have had on this team.

again, I'm not sure. I think our three rooks from last year are all very high character guys. the fact that they spoke out about Brown and that it's now being reported that he didn't drill defense and we already know that he didn't speak to the players directly about moving in and out of the lineup. I mean, it REALLY sounds like Brown was mailing it in.

I don't know if I believe anything coming out of either camp. But even Mo Taylor came out and defended Brown recently. All I know is there is alot of untruth everywhere. I can honestly even say the theory about what the rookies said being MSG propaganda is not that unbelieveable given the current situation.

I would definately believe it. MSG knows, most fans only like the rookies on this roster and the fact that Marv Albert was fired for being critical of the team leads me to believe that Dolan and MSG have their hands all over this one (again.)
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crzymdups
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7/7/2006  11:18 AM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:

Even if Brown was only here for 3 years, I think he would have instilled a work ethic and knowledge in our guys that Isiah just won't. I'm not going to fool myself into thinking he is a long term coach he isn't, but the way he devlops players is a very long term effect he would have had on this team.

again, I'm not sure. I think our three rooks from last year are all very high character guys. the fact that they spoke out about Brown and that it's now being reported that he didn't drill defense and we already know that he didn't speak to the players directly about moving in and out of the lineup. I mean, it REALLY sounds like Brown was mailing it in.

I don't know if I believe anything coming out of either camp. But even Mo Taylor came out and defended Brown recently. All I know is there is alot of untruth everywhere. I can honestly even say the theory about what the rookies said being MSG propaganda is not that unbelieveable given the current situation.

I think that's ridiculous. The rooks just said what anyone who watched the team saw.

Guys, I really don't understand why this is an argument - Brown was horrible. Listen to the lengths people are going to defend him - now Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and David Lee, three of the most exciting and standup rookies this team has had since the 80s are schilling for Cablevision? That's absurd.
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Rich
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7/7/2006  11:20 AM
Taylor didn't really defend Brown. He merely said that the players deserve some responsibility for the horrible season.

nyk4ever
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7/7/2006  11:22 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:

Even if Brown was only here for 3 years, I think he would have instilled a work ethic and knowledge in our guys that Isiah just won't. I'm not going to fool myself into thinking he is a long term coach he isn't, but the way he devlops players is a very long term effect he would have had on this team.

again, I'm not sure. I think our three rooks from last year are all very high character guys. the fact that they spoke out about Brown and that it's now being reported that he didn't drill defense and we already know that he didn't speak to the players directly about moving in and out of the lineup. I mean, it REALLY sounds like Brown was mailing it in.

I don't know if I believe anything coming out of either camp. But even Mo Taylor came out and defended Brown recently. All I know is there is alot of untruth everywhere. I can honestly even say the theory about what the rookies said being MSG propaganda is not that unbelieveable given the current situation.

I think that's ridiculous. The rooks just said what anyone who watched the team saw.

Guys, I really don't understand why this is an argument - Brown was horrible. Listen to the lengths people are going to defend him - now Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and David Lee, three of the most exciting and standup rookies this team has had since the 80s are schilling for Cablevision? That's absurd.

How is it absurd if they are paying the checks. Whether they are good or not has nothing to do with it. Look at Channing Fryes history, he's never once been critical of his coaches before, now all the sudden he is? It's very out of character for Channing to say the things he did.
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Rich
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7/7/2006  11:23 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:

Even if Brown was only here for 3 years, I think he would have instilled a work ethic and knowledge in our guys that Isiah just won't. I'm not going to fool myself into thinking he is a long term coach he isn't, but the way he devlops players is a very long term effect he would have had on this team.

again, I'm not sure. I think our three rooks from last year are all very high character guys. the fact that they spoke out about Brown and that it's now being reported that he didn't drill defense and we already know that he didn't speak to the players directly about moving in and out of the lineup. I mean, it REALLY sounds like Brown was mailing it in.

I don't know if I believe anything coming out of either camp. But even Mo Taylor came out and defended Brown recently. All I know is there is alot of untruth everywhere. I can honestly even say the theory about what the rookies said being MSG propaganda is not that unbelieveable given the current situation.

I think that's ridiculous. The rooks just said what anyone who watched the team saw.

Guys, I really don't understand why this is an argument - Brown was horrible. Listen to the lengths people are going to defend him - now Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and David Lee, three of the most exciting and standup rookies this team has had since the 80s are schilling for Cablevision? That's absurd.

How is it absurd if they are paying the checks. Whether they are good or not has nothing to do with it. Look at Channing Fryes history, he's never once been critical of his coaches before, now all the sudden he is? It's very out of character for Channing to say the things he did.

Which only strengthens the case against Larry.
joec32033
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7/7/2006  11:24 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:

Even if Brown was only here for 3 years, I think he would have instilled a work ethic and knowledge in our guys that Isiah just won't. I'm not going to fool myself into thinking he is a long term coach he isn't, but the way he devlops players is a very long term effect he would have had on this team.

again, I'm not sure. I think our three rooks from last year are all very high character guys. the fact that they spoke out about Brown and that it's now being reported that he didn't drill defense and we already know that he didn't speak to the players directly about moving in and out of the lineup. I mean, it REALLY sounds like Brown was mailing it in.

I don't know if I believe anything coming out of either camp. But even Mo Taylor came out and defended Brown recently. All I know is there is alot of untruth everywhere. I can honestly even say the theory about what the rookies said being MSG propaganda is not that unbelieveable given the current situation.

I think that's ridiculous. The rooks just said what anyone who watched the team saw.

Guys, I really don't understand why this is an argument - Brown was horrible. Listen to the lengths people are going to defend him - now Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and David Lee, three of the most exciting and standup rookies this team has had since the 80s are schilling for Cablevision? That's absurd.

How is it ridiculous? Brown says one thing, MSG says something else. People have come out for Brown. People have come out for MSG. How do you decide? At worst one side doesn't have any more credibility than the other so it comes down to a matter of opinion.

Opinion is ridiculous? 2nd year players-especially ones from winning programs who are upstanding guys-calling out an ex-coach? Does that make sense to you?
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crzymdups
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7/7/2006  11:31 AM
Posted by joec32033:

How is it ridiculous? Brown says one thing, MSG says something else. People have come out for Brown. People have come out for MSG. How do you decide? At worst one side doesn't have any more credibility than the other so it comes down to a matter of opinion.

Opinion is ridiculous? 2nd year players-especially ones from winning programs who are upstanding guys-calling out an ex-coach? Does that make sense to you?

Not one player has come to Brown's defense. I suspect QRich might, but he probably wants to be traded. Mo T said he thought the players deserved to take some responsibility, and he's right. But go look up Mo T's rant in March when he was taken out of the lineup without being told - he says EVERYTHING Lee, Frye and Nate said recently when he was in the heat of the moment. Do you think Mo T was schilling for Cablevision at that point?

The fact that Frye, Nate and Lee said what they said only strengthens the case against Brown. What they said was not fabricated at all. What they said was what we all saw.

This conspiracy theory, like most conspiracy theories, is a whole lot of wishful thinking. I love the X-Files, but there are no aliens coming to take us away. And Larry Brown did a horrible job. No conspiracy is going to change what we all saw.

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TMS
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7/7/2006  11:32 AM
i guess we should also completely ignore the opinions of veteran players LB has coached in the past as well who almost always refer to him as 1 of the best coaches they've ever played for... but hey, what do guys like Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Dikembe Mutombo know about winning in the NBA? we should really be listening to 2nd year players just coming off a 23 win season in order to formulate our opinions on this guy i suppose.
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crzymdups
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7/7/2006  11:38 AM
Posted by TMS:

i guess we should also completely ignore the opinions of veteran players LB has coached in the past as well who almost always refer to him as 1 of the best coaches they've ever played for... but hey, what do guys like Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Dikembe Mutombo know about winning in the NBA? we should really be listening to 2nd year players just coming off a 23 win season in order to formulate our opinions on this guy i suppose.

in the PAST. let's just talk about what Brown did in New York, unless you want me to bring up his performance in the Olympics again or how he left Detroit again?

the fact is, Brown has left his three jobs in disgrace. he's 65, he has health problems, the league has undergone some dramatic rule changes. maybe it's time to hang up the "right way" once and for all.
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joec32033
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7/7/2006  11:39 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:

How is it ridiculous? Brown says one thing, MSG says something else. People have come out for Brown. People have come out for MSG. How do you decide? At worst one side doesn't have any more credibility than the other so it comes down to a matter of opinion.

Opinion is ridiculous? 2nd year players-especially ones from winning programs who are upstanding guys-calling out an ex-coach? Does that make sense to you?

Not one player has come to Brown's defense. I suspect QRich might, but he probably wants to be traded. Mo T said he thought the players deserved to take some responsibility, and he's right. But go look up Mo T's rant in March when he was taken out of the lineup without being told - he says EVERYTHING Lee, Frye and Nate said recently when he was in the heat of the moment. Do you think Mo T was schilling for Cablevision at that point?

The fact that Frye, Nate and Lee said what they said only strengthens the case against Brown. What they said was not fabricated at all. What they said was what we all saw.

This conspiracy theory, like most conspiracy theories, is a whole lot of wishful thinking. I love the X-Files, but there are no aliens coming to take us away. And Larry Brown did a horrible job. No conspiracy is going to change what we all saw.

Actually there are plenty of vets that came to his defense. As TMS said, and these are guys that had MAJOR problems with him when he coached them. The main difference between all these guys and the Knicks situation? The management of other teams stood behind Brown and said "He is your coach, we are standing behind him because we trust him more than you." Our management said "Gotta keep the guys happy, can't have a coach be too mean to them.". After all the crap Iverson went through with Brown, he calls him a feaking father figure bro! We are talking about IVERSON saying this!
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Rich
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7/7/2006  11:42 AM
Posted by TMS:

i guess we should also completely ignore the opinions of veteran players LB has coached in the past as well who almost always refer to him as 1 of the best coaches they've ever played for... but hey, what do guys like Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Dikembe Mutombo know about winning in the NBA? we should really be listening to 2nd year players just coming off a 23 win season in order to formulate our opinions on this guy i suppose.


Nope, but their comments have to be viewed in context. Larry didn't come here to win. He came here for a really big check.
joec32033
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7/7/2006  11:43 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by TMS:

i guess we should also completely ignore the opinions of veteran players LB has coached in the past as well who almost always refer to him as 1 of the best coaches they've ever played for... but hey, what do guys like Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Dikembe Mutombo know about winning in the NBA? we should really be listening to 2nd year players just coming off a 23 win season in order to formulate our opinions on this guy i suppose.

in the PAST. let's just talk about what Brown did in New York, unless you want me to bring up his performance in the Olympics again or how he left Detroit again?

the fact is, Brown has left his three jobs in disgrace. he's 65, he has health problems, the league has undergone some dramatic rule changes. maybe it's time to hang up the "right way" once and for all.

Stop with this no past crap. And I call it that because guys are selectively applying this. "Oh screw Brown's past" yet in the very next sentence, they use Isiah's past as proof he will be a good coach! They use it in justifying Marbury is a good player "Oh, he averaged 20 and 8"-this past season he did crap! Isiah built a team that noone can coach but himself...that is not a good GM, yet he deserves a promotion?

Apply it evenly in all situations and it is a better argument.
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crzymdups
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7/7/2006  12:02 PM
Posted by joec32033:


Stop with this no past crap. And I call it that because guys are selectively applying this. "Oh screw Brown's past" yet in the very next sentence, they use Isiah's past as proof he will be a good coach! They use it in justifying Marbury is a good player "Oh, he averaged 20 and 8"-this past season he did crap! Isiah built a team that noone can coach but himself...that is not a good GM, yet he deserves a promotion?

Apply it evenly in all situations and it is a better argument.

I very rarely bring up Isiah's past (except to mention draft prowess) or Marbury's. I think Marbury is a very good player right now. I think Isiah is a good choice to coach this team right now. I think Isiah was hesitant to coach this team, but Dolan has put the pressure on him. For once, I think Dolan has made the right call.
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joec32033
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7/7/2006  12:04 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:


Stop with this no past crap. And I call it that because guys are selectively applying this. "Oh screw Brown's past" yet in the very next sentence, they use Isiah's past as proof he will be a good coach! They use it in justifying Marbury is a good player "Oh, he averaged 20 and 8"-this past season he did crap! Isiah built a team that noone can coach but himself...that is not a good GM, yet he deserves a promotion?

Apply it evenly in all situations and it is a better argument.

I very rarely bring up Isiah's past (except to mention draft prowess) or Marbury's. I think Marbury is a very good player right now. I think Isiah is a good choice to coach this team right now. I think Isiah was hesitant to coach this team, but Dolan has put the pressure on him. For once, I think Dolan has made the right call.

I think the right choice was made for this season and this current construct of players. I don't think it is better long term and I don't think he will have the success that LB could have brought to this organization.

Even using Isiah's past draft picks is the equivilant of using Browns past (they are both good at that respective part of their job-do you think either of them just forgot what they are doing? No. Not likely. They both have a method. In both cases it is proven to work. I am not just singling you out, but the whole the past doesn't count thing when applied evenly-other than LB-signifies this team is a team of cancers and underachievers and primadonnas.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 07-07-2006 12:07 PM]
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nyk4ever
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7/7/2006  1:11 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:

Even if Brown was only here for 3 years, I think he would have instilled a work ethic and knowledge in our guys that Isiah just won't. I'm not going to fool myself into thinking he is a long term coach he isn't, but the way he devlops players is a very long term effect he would have had on this team.

again, I'm not sure. I think our three rooks from last year are all very high character guys. the fact that they spoke out about Brown and that it's now being reported that he didn't drill defense and we already know that he didn't speak to the players directly about moving in and out of the lineup. I mean, it REALLY sounds like Brown was mailing it in.

I don't know if I believe anything coming out of either camp. But even Mo Taylor came out and defended Brown recently. All I know is there is alot of untruth everywhere. I can honestly even say the theory about what the rookies said being MSG propaganda is not that unbelieveable given the current situation.

I think that's ridiculous. The rooks just said what anyone who watched the team saw.

Guys, I really don't understand why this is an argument - Brown was horrible. Listen to the lengths people are going to defend him - now Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and David Lee, three of the most exciting and standup rookies this team has had since the 80s are schilling for Cablevision? That's absurd.

How is it absurd if they are paying the checks. Whether they are good or not has nothing to do with it. Look at Channing Fryes history, he's never once been critical of his coaches before, now all the sudden he is? It's very out of character for Channing to say the things he did.

Which only strengthens the case against Larry.

I don't think so at all, I think it strengthens the case of Dolan telling him to do it. But we're not going to agree with each other so its pointless to keep it going.
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joec32033
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7/7/2006  1:17 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:

Even if Brown was only here for 3 years, I think he would have instilled a work ethic and knowledge in our guys that Isiah just won't. I'm not going to fool myself into thinking he is a long term coach he isn't, but the way he devlops players is a very long term effect he would have had on this team.

again, I'm not sure. I think our three rooks from last year are all very high character guys. the fact that they spoke out about Brown and that it's now being reported that he didn't drill defense and we already know that he didn't speak to the players directly about moving in and out of the lineup. I mean, it REALLY sounds like Brown was mailing it in.

I don't know if I believe anything coming out of either camp. But even Mo Taylor came out and defended Brown recently. All I know is there is alot of untruth everywhere. I can honestly even say the theory about what the rookies said being MSG propaganda is not that unbelieveable given the current situation.

I think that's ridiculous. The rooks just said what anyone who watched the team saw.

Guys, I really don't understand why this is an argument - Brown was horrible. Listen to the lengths people are going to defend him - now Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and David Lee, three of the most exciting and standup rookies this team has had since the 80s are schilling for Cablevision? That's absurd.

How is it absurd if they are paying the checks. Whether they are good or not has nothing to do with it. Look at Channing Fryes history, he's never once been critical of his coaches before, now all the sudden he is? It's very out of character for Channing to say the things he did.

Which only strengthens the case against Larry.

I don't think so at all, I think it strengthens the case of Dolan telling him to do it. But we're not going to agree with each other so its pointless to keep it going.

The fact that Channing has never called out a coach before (ok...he only had one so this really doesn't have ALOT of clout, bro)just strengthens the case that it is way out of character for him to do that. It strengthens the fact that it makes no sense for him to just make LB the first coach he did that to. Channing looks like a smart, intelligent, student of the game type of guy, I doubt seriously that he comes out and says what he said without knowing he had some type of backing.
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BlueSeats
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7/7/2006  1:46 PM
Posted by joec32033:
The fact that Channing has never called out a coach before (ok...he only had one so this really doesn't have ALOT of clout, bro)just strengthens the case that it is way out of character for him to do that. It strengthens the fact that it makes no sense for him to just make LB the first coach he did that to. Channing looks like a smart, intelligent, student of the game type of guy, I doubt seriously that he comes out and says what he said without knowing he had some type of backing.

this might be a little OT, but it recently occurred to me that Marbury might have been greenlighted to go after brown in the press last year too. The theory would suggest that dolan and isiah were already looking for an out with Brown and decided to highlight Brown's proclivities via the press. to the best of my recollection brown was quit praiseful of Marbury during and after the win streak. but without recent provocation marbury started tweaking brown by informing him thru the press of his timetable for return and publicly baiting him into conflict.

I mean we're told the players are under orders of silence:

GREENBURGH, N.Y. -- As soon as the Knicks fired Larry Brown yesterday vice president for public relations Jonathan Supranowitz called the players and told them not to say a word to reporters.

According to one player, who asked not to be named, they are under a strict mandate of silence.


yet selective ones are invited to speak. Similarly Dolan told brown to stop engaging with Marbury thru the media. yet it was Steph who kept baiting him with unprovoked lines about wanting "no set plays" and needing to play like "starbury" whether brown likes it or not.

There is certainly a double standard, to say the least, and I think it;s no coincidence it favors the franchise.

I wonder if we'll get a tell all from brown whenever the contract arbitration is over. I kinda doubt it. Lenny didn't speak out until his last MSG check was cashed, and that's gonna be a long time away for Larry. And I think Stern will mandate some sort of truce within the resolution.

pity.


Thomas Sets a New Goal for the Knicks: The Playoffs (nyt article)

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