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It's possible Brown did both good and bad
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rvhoss
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7/7/2006  4:58 AM
49^2, I had to edit this because it was a pretty good post, but with no line breaks it's unbearable!!!


Posted by 4949:
Posted by TMS:

the real question is would you rather have a coach like LB & a roster that could succeed under him, or a roster like we have now & a coach they'll enjoy playing for... i guess the easier route was to choose the latter, but easier isn't always necessarily the better choice.

I am a Brown supporter, always was. So with that, i'd like to add, it depends on whether the team could have played better, under a more relaxed situation.

If they had a coach that just let them run, maybe it would have been a different story. Instead, this team didn't seem to be able to respond to the Brown discipline. So we'll see if Zeke let's them play loser. If so, we may get a lot more wins around this time.

The down side, if Nate is allowed to 'showboat' then it could have a negative affect on this team. It leaves open doors, that are vulnerable to different types of media in other cities.

One for sure, that I know of is Chicago. They are experts at expoiting the psychology of a player and it's local fans, who buy into the whole 'hype' thing. They did it when Jordan was there, still trying to do it today and will do it in the future.

If you don't think someting like that doesn't count, then you have a few things to learn. A lot of people don't take this knid of thing into consideration when considering the things that go into a player, a game, a season, a career. ATTITUDE is more important nowadays, then it has ever been.

Disciplin is going out the window, it's true. So when you view the negative and positive aspects of the NBA today, you have to take those kinds of things into consideration, to be able to evaluate the kind of player, team you are trying to convey to the fans.

I can tell you two things in this thought.

One, you can have a team that conducts itself professionally, who plays good hard defense and plays a good fundamental game, a focused game, not letting anyone into your psychology or you can have a showboating team that will try to get into peoples faces, do the war of words and try to win on that alone.

I prefer the professional aspect, because no one can attack it, when you win. What is my proof? The Magic Johnson Lakers, with Kareem and Worthy, a hard working, talanted, gifted Pat Riley disciplined group that went out to play good fundamental basketball, who won five championships. The same could be said of the Bird Celtics, who won three during those wars. The Houston Rockets, with Hakeem and company, who went out and played a good solid game, who won two championships. The San Antonio Spurs with Tim Duncan and company, who played a good solid game that they won with. The Ben Wallace Pistons could be another hard playing defensive team that finally won one.

Now for the others, The Bulls, of course they had Jordan and with that they could afford to have an attitude. Just ask Pippen? The Bad Boys of Detroit, had all kinds of attitude problems and basically had an outstanding guard, and terrific rebounder in Rodman and a very good 'outside' shooting center who took two championships.

So those were two cases that could get away with it.

Another team, the Shaq - Kobe Lakers could get away with it also. Kobe just so happened to be talanted enough to have an attitude and win with Shaq and company, but look what the attitude did to the team. Shaq left and we see who the real leader of the team was now, don't we? So my point is, you can win with a good solid team, that runs a good hard nosed routine that could get you back into contention or you can have all the attitude you would want, but you better have a Zeke-Rodman type group or a Jordan - Pippen type group or a Shaq - Kobe type group if you want to win it all.

So far, we have a chance to have a solid, well fundamentally sound team here that could eventually go knocking on the door again. If you choose to have the atttitude team, then you better have a few 'real' superstars to go along with it.

Otherwise this team will be writing it's character now for years to come.


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rvhoss
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7/7/2006  5:06 AM
one quick thing 49^2, if you lose with the professional approach, it all comes crashing down, se riley's knicks.
all kool aid all the time.
gunsnewing
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7/7/2006  6:21 AM
being a Brown supporter is irrelevant. He purposely sabotaged the team. He had to go unless drastic changes could've been made which they couldn't because of the hole Isiah put us in
misterearl
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7/7/2006  7:07 AM
>>He had to go unless drastic changes could've been made which they couldn't because of the hole Isiah put us in

Isiah didn't put anyone in a hole.

A HOLE?

Traded for Marbury. Signed Jamal.

He drafted the respectable Frye, the hard-working Lee and the relentless Nate.

Picked up a center everyone heralded, in Curry.

Picked up the free and talented Jackie Butler.

Traded for recent All-Star Steve Francis.

Picked up Balkman, Collins, Adekele and a couple of centers for SL.

A hole?

Bring back Clarence Weatherspoon!

It's a new year.
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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7/7/2006  7:17 AM
>>as much as last year debacle can be almost 100% attributed to larry brown, this year's success can be split evenly between lb, zeke and the players.

Larry Brown is gone. Last year was on everyone, from Dolan on down.

This years success, if we are so fortunate, will be the fruit of the players hard work, Dolan's patience and Isiah's leadership.


If they lose in 07, will there be a single mention of Larry Brown as the culprit?

once a knick always a knick
TMS
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7/7/2006  9:50 AM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by TMS:

the real question is would you rather have a coach like LB & a roster that could succeed under him, or a roster like we have now & a coach they'll enjoy playing for... i guess the easier route was to choose the latter, but easier isn't always necessarily the better choice.

I am a Brown supporter, always was. So with that, i'd like to add, it depends on whether the team could have played better, under a more relaxed situation. If they had a coach that just let them run, maybe it would have been a different story. Instead, this team didn't seem to be able to respond to the Brown discipline. So we'll see if Zeke let's them play loser. If so, we may get a lot more wins around this time. The down side, if Nate is allowed to 'showboat' then it could have a negative affect on this team. It leaves open doors, that are vulnerable to different types of media in other cities. One for sure, that I know of is Chicago. They are experts at expoiting the psychology of a player and it's local fans, who buy into the whole 'hype' thing. They did it when Jordan was there, still trying to do it today and will do it in the future. If you don't think someting like that doesn't count, then you have a few things to learn. A lot of people don't take this knid of thing into consideration when considering the things that go into a player, a game, a season, a career. ATTITUDE is more important nowadays, then it has ever been. Disciplin is going out the window, it's true. So when you view the negative and positive aspects of the NBA today, you have to take those kinds of things into consideration, to be able to evaluate the kind of player, team you are trying to convey to the fans. I can tell you two things in this thought. One, you can have a team that conducts itself professionally, who plays good hard defense and plays a good fundamental game, a focused game, not letting anyone into your psychology or you can have a showboating team that will try to get into peoples faces, do the war of words and try to win on that alone. I prefer the professional aspect, because no one can attack it, when you win. What is my proof? The Magic Johnson Lakers, with Kareem and Worthy, a hard working, talanted, gifted Pat Riley disciplined group that went out to play good fundamental basketball, who won five championships. The same could be said of the Bird Celtics, who won three during those wars. The Houston Rockets, with Hakeem and company, who went out and played a good solid game, who won two championships. The San Antonio Spurs with Tim Duncan and company, who played a good solid game that they won with. The Ben Wallace Pistons could be another hard playing defensive team that finally won one. Now for the others, The Bulls, of course they had Jordan and with that they could afford to have an attitude. Just ask Pippen? The Bad Boys of Detroit, had all kinds of attitude problems and basically had an outstanding guard, and terrific rebounder in Rodman and a very good 'outside' shooting center who took two championships. So those were two cases that could get away with it. Another team, the Shaq - Kobe Lakers could get away with it also. Kobe just so happened to be talanted enough to have an attitude and win with Shaq and company, but look what the attitude did to the team. Shaq left and we see who the real leader of the team was now, don't we? So my point is, you can win with a good solid team, that runs a good hard nosed routine that could get you back into contention or you can have all the attitude you would want, but you better have a Zeke-Rodman type group or a Jordan - Pippen type group or a Shaq - Kobe type group if you want to win it all. So far, we have a chance to have a solid, well fundamentally sound team here that could eventually go knocking on the door again. If you choose to have the atttitude team, then you better have a few 'real' superstars to go along with it. Otherwise this team will be writing it's character now for years to come.


i'll bet you any amount of dollars that if the supposed "leaders" on this team had bought into LB's methods right from the beginning, the team would've played ALOT better under his coaching... look at how the team tanked once Antonio Davis got traded away... that's about when the public feud between Starbury & LB reached toxic levels.

it's no wonder the young kids on this team have come out w/the balls to criticize a HOF coach when they themselves have absolutely no idea of what it takes to win at this level... they have nothing but selfish, me-first veteran role models to emulate... can you ever picture them saying the types of things they said about LB if someone like Charles Oakley or Larry Johnson were on this team? it would never happen... that in itself just makes me hate a certain someone even more.
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Bippity10
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7/7/2006  10:05 AM
TMS: There is a positive to the players continuing the circus. It at least holds their feet to the fire and means they don't have an excuse to quit on Isiah
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joec32033
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7/7/2006  10:06 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

TMS: There is a positive to the players continuing the circus. It at least holds their feet to the fire and means they don't have an excuse to quit on Isiah

The negative is they can plead insanity if they continue to lose, and get off scott free.
~You can't run from who you are.~
TMS
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7/7/2006  10:09 AM
well, that's the point we've come to at least, but i find little solace in that since i have zero faith in Dolan to make the right choice for a successor to Isiah to rebuild this team if we have to endure another pathetic season this year.
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joec32033
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7/7/2006  10:10 AM
Posted by TMS:

well, that's the point we've come to at least, but i find little solace in that since i have zero faith in Dolan to make the right choice for a successor to Isiah to rebuild this team if we have to endure another pathetic season this year.

Solace, I had no idea, what's the little one's name?
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Bippity10
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7/7/2006  10:13 AM
Posted by TMS:

well, that's the point we've come to at least, but i find little solace in that since i have zero faith in Dolan to make the right choice for a successor to Isiah to rebuild this team if we have to endure another pathetic season this year.

That's the fear. If Isiah has a poor season where the he-ll do we go from there. Who will come in as GM? Who will come in as coach? That would definitely be rock bottom.

I just hope that people will like me
joec32033
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7/7/2006  10:14 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by TMS:

well, that's the point we've come to at least, but i find little solace in that since i have zero faith in Dolan to make the right choice for a successor to Isiah to rebuild this team if we have to endure another pathetic season this year.

That's the fear. If Isiah has a poor season where the he-ll do we go from there. Who will come in as GM? Who will come in as coach? That would definitely be rock bottom.

I couldn't imagine anything lower than our 2nd year players calling out a 30 yr. hall of fame caliber coach. But you do have a point.
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Bippity10
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7/7/2006  10:28 AM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by TMS:

well, that's the point we've come to at least, but i find little solace in that since i have zero faith in Dolan to make the right choice for a successor to Isiah to rebuild this team if we have to endure another pathetic season this year.

That's the fear. If Isiah has a poor season where the he-ll do we go from there. Who will come in as GM? Who will come in as coach? That would definitely be rock bottom.

I couldn't imagine anything lower than our 2nd year players calling out a 30 yr. hall of fame caliber coach. But you do have a point.

Every year I think "this is rock bottom", every year I'm proven wrong. Now I'm going on the premise that LB was the cause for all our problems and that our veteran leaders like Steph and Eddie and Franchise and JJ and Mo will step up silence the rookies tell them that last year is over and that we need to focus on coming into camp free from the circus and ready to prove all the doubters wrong. I'm expecting it. I will probably be looking for flying pigs when it happens but I'm now expecting those as well.
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Isiah11
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7/7/2006  10:30 AM
I thought the leaders on the team tried to buy into the system in the beginning. They all seemed enthusiastic about LB before the season started. LB just went schizo on the team. If Knicks fans couldn't see it, take it from a Pistons fan. LB can be a great coach, but he was far from it last year. Coaching responsibilities include making players play for you and leading a team. I think he gets an F in both those areas for his performance last year. Players will get distraught when you change the lineup after every game and offer no rhyme or reason for who gets playing time, it's not rocket science.

I'm still resentful of his performance in the 05 finals where the Pistons players had to address the media between each game with rumors about LB going to Cleveland and NY and every other freaking place. At some point in the end of the 05 season LB quit coaching the Pistons and they still made it to game 7 of the finals, I believe if he had had his head in the right place they would have won.

I really don't see what he did good for the Knicks last year.
TMS
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7/7/2006  11:24 AM
it's not what he would have done good for us last year... the plan was supposed to be what good would have come from him 3-5 years down the road... it was SUPPOSED to be a longterm plan, but all it was was just another in a string of stopgap "quick fix" attempts by Isiah & Dolan to fix this mess... so much for long range vision... get ready for more of the same quick fix BS for the next decade while we linger in mediocrity.
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Bippity10
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7/7/2006  11:40 AM
TMS sooner or later we have to get lucky. It may be 20 years from now but sooner or later the quick fix method will be solved when a life long NY born phenom decides he wants to save the Knicks. I mean that seems to be what we are hoping for.
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djsunyc
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7/7/2006  11:43 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

TMS sooner or later we have to get lucky. It may be 20 years from now but sooner or later the quick fix method will be solved when a life long NY born phenom decides he wants to save the Knicks. I mean that seems to be what we are hoping for.

great, so we won't be able to find another eddy for 20 more years? is that what you're telling me?!?!?
martin
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7/7/2006  12:01 PM
Posted by Isiah11:

I thought the leaders on the team tried to buy into the system in the beginning. They all seemed enthusiastic about LB before the season started. LB just went schizo on the team. If Knicks fans couldn't see it, take it from a Pistons fan. LB can be a great coach, but he was far from it last year. Coaching responsibilities include making players play for you and leading a team. I think he gets an F in both those areas for his performance last year. Players will get distraught when you change the lineup after every game and offer no rhyme or reason for who gets playing time, it's not rocket science.

I'm still resentful of his performance in the 05 finals where the Pistons players had to address the media between each game with rumors about LB going to Cleveland and NY and every other freaking place. At some point in the end of the 05 season LB quit coaching the Pistons and they still made it to game 7 of the finals, I believe if he had had his head in the right place they would have won.

I really don't see what he did good for the Knicks last year.

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Bonn1997
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7/11/2006  1:37 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

being a Brown supporter is irrelevant. He purposely sabotaged the team. He had to go unless drastic changes could've been made which they couldn't because of the hole Isiah put us in

BINGO!
It's possible Brown did both good and bad

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