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I awoke with a really really strange thought...
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OasisBU
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7/5/2006  1:54 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:


Martin, since you are asking others to lay it on the line, hows about you join in on the fun?

What win total (or range) would you have expected from LB were he here?
Do you think LB sabotaged the team?
Do you think this roster was really just a 23 win team?
And in what way would your expectations be different from LB vs. Isiah, if at all?

Lets see if I can pin one of the LB supporters down to something concrete. And all of you guys who would have liked to see LB stay, I'd like to know your answers to these questions as well (read: DJ, speak up).

Because its ahrd getting a straight answer out of the you guys.

What win total (or range) would you have expected from LB were he here?
If LB was here? Man thats tough, after last season - I would say 30 games, maybe.


Do you think LB sabotaged the team?
Yes.

Do you think this roster was really just a 23 win team?
No.

And in what way would your expectations be different from LB vs. Isiah, if at all?
I expect Isiah to hold his composure, be classy in the way he handles his players, basically be everything LB wasn't while he was here. Oh and I expect him to win.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
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BRIGGS
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7/5/2006  1:59 PM
Posted by martin:

RV, I am talking hypothetical, of course. Lots say Brown under-achieved. IF he didn't underachieve would a bad but not really bad record for the team be 35 wins? If so, and if you are to say that Isiah made the team better, he would have to improve on the 35 wins with about a 10 game improvement. That's all I am saying.

RV, take a stand on this one and don't hide behind the quotes of LB or whomever. What is your improved record for this upcoming season?

35? 45? 40?


martin is dead on. If they purport that LB tanked, than this shouldve been a 35 win team +. With a 130mm payroll and the coach who picked all the players--I would have to say that a fair bench mark is 42-43 wins with NO injury excuses because of our massive $ advantage. So a reasonable season starts at ATLEAST 41 and even one game below 41 is failure, but we should expect 43+
RIP Crushalot😞
djsunyc
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7/5/2006  2:17 PM
40+ wins and playoffs

look at it big picture wise - this is his 3rd season with the knicks. he has spent a TON of money and these are all his players (like briggs said). whatever you want to say about lb, that was his 2nd coaching hire. so after 3 seasons, this team should AT THE VERY LEAST, make the playoffs.

40 wins and no playoffs mean failure. 38 wins and playoffs mean failure.

40+ wins and playoffs is what i'm looking for.
BlueSeats
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7/5/2006  2:18 PM
I don't want to go deep into the debate again, but I don't think LB tanked the season. I think our 6 game win streak was indicative of where we might have been headed. But them Marbury got hurt, AD got suspended and traded, new players got brought in, and whatever fragile chemistry may have been developing got shattered and the players largely gave up.

Then we were in the stage where Larry was saying it's no longer about who he should be playing but who wants to play.

So I do think we were better than a 23 win team, but I don't think LB was the tanker.

I expect we'll do better this year than last because guys like Marbury wont be dragging their feet and/or giving up. At the same time I think if we had made some changes for LB we'd have done better with him too.
eViL
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7/5/2006  2:30 PM
This is not such a strange thought, RV. You have thoughts like this all the time. Now, this would be a very strange thought for a rational person who is realistic about the Knicks
check out my latest hip hop project: https://soundcloud.com/michaelcro http://youtu.be/scNXshrpyZo
nyk4ever
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7/5/2006  2:31 PM
Posted by eViL:

This is not such a strange thought, RV. You have thoughts like this all the time. Now, this would be a very strange thought for a rational person who is realistic about the Knicks

LOL!
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Killa4luv
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7/5/2006  2:34 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

40+ wins and playoffs

look at it big picture wise - this is his 3rd season with the knicks. he has spent a TON of money and these are all his players (like briggs said). whatever you want to say about lb, that was his 2nd coaching hire. so after 3 seasons, this team should AT THE VERY LEAST, make the playoffs.

40 wins and no playoffs mean failure. 38 wins and playoffs mean failure.

40+ wins and playoffs is what i'm looking for.
I love this! So a 17 win turnaround is your mandate? LOL!
I have to ask this, although I already know the answer, would you have felt the same way about success if Larry "I invented the game with Dr. Naismith" Brown were the coach?
Do you think LB sabotaged the team?
Do you think this roster was really just a 23 win team?


Let the crooked answers begin!!



[Edited by - killa4luv on 07-05-2006 2:35 PM]
eViL
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7/5/2006  2:38 PM
Killa, there's no conspiracy -- this team is the equivalent of a rock band with five drummers and an accordian player.
check out my latest hip hop project: https://soundcloud.com/michaelcro http://youtu.be/scNXshrpyZo
BRIGGS
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7/5/2006  2:39 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by djsunyc:

40+ wins and playoffs

look at it big picture wise - this is his 3rd season with the knicks. he has spent a TON of money and these are all his players (like briggs said). whatever you want to say about lb, that was his 2nd coaching hire. so after 3 seasons, this team should AT THE VERY LEAST, make the playoffs.

40 wins and no playoffs mean failure. 38 wins and playoffs mean failure.

40+ wins and playoffs is what i'm looking for.
I love this! So a 17 win turnaround is your mandate? LOL!
I have to ask this, although I already know the answer, would you have felt the same way about success if Larry "I invented the game with Dr. Naismith" Brown were the coach?
Do you think LB sabotaged the team?
Do you think this roster was really just a 23 win team?


Let the crooked answers begin!!



[Edited by - killa4luv on 07-05-2006 2:35 PM]

The Knicks are the one's who say they werent a 23 win team--the management of the Knicks. So if this is true, with a 125-130mm $ payroll--i mean what is acceptable? If LB tanked --then Im guess they wouldve won 35 MINIMALLY with a *gooD8coach, but more likely .500 with our payroll. Now its fair to assume that with the HUGE leeway afforded IT with his guys and what the team and its fans have paid for the players-----that expecting 41 at an ABSOLUTE minimumis fair bench mark progress. 23 is a false number---atleast that is what they say
RIP Crushalot😞
nyk4ever
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7/5/2006  2:40 PM
LB didn't sabatoge anything. His plan works and it was year one. He gave Dolan the list of players he wanted waived so he could coach players who work hard and play together as a team and when Dolan recieved that list he didn't want them waived, Larry was gone, it's that simple. If your a Knick fan you should have begged for Larry to stay becuase if this team waived Marbury, Francis, Rose, etc etc the Knicks would be in a much better situation and us fans would be much closer to seeing a team that has a shot of winning something.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07-05-2006 2:41 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
buddapaw
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7/5/2006  2:50 PM
How about Brown trying to work with what he had, instead of bitching and moaning which was very counter productive. I've seen teams with less talented players produce more results also borderline coaches produce some semblance of success. What transpired last season was an absolute disgrace in regards to coaching effort and motivation. I think LB is out of touch with today's younger players this is where the problem lies. Zeke hired the wrong coach.
"Low Percentage Shots r US, these are our Knicks" "NY KNICKS the cure for basketball fanatic"
nyk4ever
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7/5/2006  2:54 PM
Posted by buddapaw:

How about Brown trying to work with what he had, instead of bitching and moaning which was very counter productive. I've seen teams with less talented players produce more results also borderline coaches produce some semblance of success. What transpired last season was an absolute disgrace in regards to coaching effort and motivation. I think LB is out of touch with today's younger players this is where the problem lies. Zeke hired the wrong coach.

Because thats not the way he's ever done things, his way works, it's a fact.

This is what I don't get about New York fans. New York fans constantly bitch and moan about how they want a certain great player or coach/manager but once that player or coach comes here, these fans immediatately want him to stop doing things his way, even though his way has made him successful and the fans want him to do things their way, even though they keep yelling for coaches to do things their way, even though the fans don't realize that their way KEEPS FAILING. The time for being short-sighted with the Knicks is over, this team needs a massive overhaul and Larry Brown had a plan to do that overhaul, as evident by his request for Marbury, Francis, Rose etc etc to be gone from the roster. Thats what its going to take guys, like it or not the Knicks will never win a championship with Marbury and Francis on this roster.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07-05-2006 2:56 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
buddapaw
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7/5/2006  2:55 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by buddapaw:

How about Brown trying to work with what he had, instead of bitching and moaning which was very counter productive. I've seen teams with less talented players produce more results also borderline coaches produce some semblance of success. What transpired last season was an absolute disgrace in regards to coaching effort and motivation. I think LB is out of touch with today's younger players this is where the problem lies. Zeke hired the wrong coach.

Because thats not the way he's ever done things, his way works, it's a fact.

This is what I don't get about New York fans. New York fans constantly bitch and moan about how they want a certain great player or coach/manager but once that player or coach comes here, these fans immediatately want him to stop doing things his way, even though his way has made him successful and the fans want him to do things their way, even though they keep yelling for coaches to do things their way, they always fail.

I never liked JUMP SHIP Brown
"Low Percentage Shots r US, these are our Knicks" "NY KNICKS the cure for basketball fanatic"
nyk4ever
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7/5/2006  2:58 PM
Posted by buddapaw:


I never liked JUMP SHIP Brown

It really doesn't matter if you liked him, loved him or hated him. He has a way of doing things that has worked, as proved by his history, the fact that you you don't like him has nothing to do with it.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
djsunyc
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7/5/2006  2:59 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by djsunyc:

40+ wins and playoffs

look at it big picture wise - this is his 3rd season with the knicks. he has spent a TON of money and these are all his players (like briggs said). whatever you want to say about lb, that was his 2nd coaching hire. so after 3 seasons, this team should AT THE VERY LEAST, make the playoffs.

40 wins and no playoffs mean failure. 38 wins and playoffs mean failure.

40+ wins and playoffs is what i'm looking for.
I love this! So a 17 win turnaround is your mandate? LOL!
I have to ask this, although I already know the answer, would you have felt the same way about success if Larry "I invented the game with Dr. Naismith" Brown were the coach?
Do you think LB sabotaged the team?
Do you think this roster was really just a 23 win team?


Let the crooked answers begin!!

larry's gone. if you noticed, i haven't mentioned his name in a long long time.

the deal is this - how many games does any coach win with this team last year? now take that number and add 5 more wins (a very conservative improvement). so to me, this team should win 40 games and should be in the playoffs.

40 minus 23 equals 17. so yes, that's my mandate.

it would've been the same if lb stayed (with the same roster).

what if the team wins 35 games. would you be happy? would you call that significant improvement?
buddapaw
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7/5/2006  3:07 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by buddapaw:


I never liked JUMP SHIP Brown

It really doesn't matter if you liked him, loved him or hated him. He has a way of doing things that has worked, as proved by his history, the fact that you you don't like him has nothing to do with it.

History is the applicable word here, had he shown any form of consistency last season, I am not talking the consistent line up changes, the weird substitutions patterns then he would have deserved a flyer for this year. But he didn't. This isn't NBA Live where you can make stupid trades and have your players. It's just not that simple. He was paid to coach the team as is and to give input on players, he obviously chose to make the latter more important.
"Low Percentage Shots r US, these are our Knicks" "NY KNICKS the cure for basketball fanatic"
buddapaw
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7/5/2006  3:09 PM
The point is moot by the way
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Anji
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7/5/2006  3:13 PM
Seriously though.......... NYK had the most bias post in here. This unsmoothy award is for you.
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nyk4ever
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7/5/2006  3:14 PM
Posted by buddapaw:

The point is moot by the way

Yeah it is moot, its worthless to argue it. I just wish this team stuck with the guy who had a plan, thats all because when I look around, all I see are players with redflags galore and executives with no plan.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
nyk4ever
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7/5/2006  3:14 PM
Posted by Anji:

Seriously though.......... NYK had the most bias post in here. This unsmoothy award is for you.

Cool man.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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