Posted by Rich:

Marcus was highly rated by non-GMs, apparently.

If Jerry West was going to take him 8 and Rod Thorn had him ranked #12-thats reasonable praise. Each year a player falls for unknown reasons--last year Danny Granger--supposed to anywhere from 4-8 goes 17
Boston said it almost picked Gomes at 17 until Green fell, yet were able to get Gomes in the 50s. thats just a rigid thought process---21 teams passed him. Thats not how pro sports works.

Posted by djsunyc:

a future #1 at the least.

So pick a guy who you can't use, so that you can trade him for a future pick, when you are a coach working on a 1 year ultimatum, AND there are players you like in the draft? Thats alot to go through to get a guy you dont want/need/ and who has several red flags already.

I will never understand this Marcus Williams controversy.

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by djsunyc:

a future #1 at the least.

So pick a guy who you can't use, so that you can trade him for a future pick, when you are a coach working on a 1 year ultimatum, AND there are players you like in the draft? Thats alot to go through to get a guy you dont want/need/ and who has several red flags already.

I will never understand this Marcus Williams controversy.

here is the layman

take williams

call NJ ill give you williams for 23 and a future 1
NJ has a need for a PG and has him highly ranked
NJ makes value deal
NY picks up a future 1 and still gets their guys.

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by djsunyc:

a future #1 at the least.

So pick a guy who you can't use, so that you can trade him for a future pick, when you are a coach working on a 1 year ultimatum, AND there are players you like in the draft? Thats alot to go through to get a guy you dont want/need/ and who has several red flags already.

I will never understand this Marcus Williams controversy.

here is the layman

take williams

call NJ ill give you williams for 23 and a future 1
NJ has a need for a PG and has him highly ranked
NJ makes value deal
NY picks up a future 1 and still gets their guys.

So now you guys want to operate based on the premise that this would have been a done deal. You don't kow they would give up 2 #1's for him so you really can't say that.

Posted by unstopaball12:

y do we get all the heat for not drafting williams

We get all the heat for reaching down for a guy who actually had a real shot of going undrafted had we not reached so far and took him at #20. So far not a single GM has said they had Balkman slated anywhere even close to the first round, but many have come out and said they had him slated "late, late". Yes, we reached. Yes, it will cost us in the long run. ... and yes, Marcus would've gone #8 had Gay not slipped. If Marcus went #8, the board would be like, "we should've traded up to get him". Had Balkman not gone #20, consensus says he might've gotten picked in the 50s, if at all. That's the difference.

Anyway, if you really can't understand how value is important, then there's no point in having a logical discussion. I guess for some, Curry for 99 picks would've been a good trade, because "hey, we got our guy" then too. At some point one says, enough is enough. That point should've been passed after the first five times we missed the value mark on getting an "asset". Just think of this.. subtract the Curry trade, subtract the Balkman pick, undo the Maurice Taylor trade, all the sudden you're talking about drafting Tyrus Thomas at the #2, Marcus Williams at the #20, whoever at the #29 (let's say Mardy Collins) and you can still take Renaldo Balkman at the #32 with a non-guaranteed contract, and well before anyone else has a shot at him. That's called having a plan.... but it would've actually taken some forsight -- something this organization is becoming famous for ignoring. That's all.

Posted by Rich:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by Rich:

21 teams. 'Nuff said.

Rich, nothing personal at all, but anytime someone brings this up I have to say, 21 teams passed on Arenas, some passed twice....what do they have to say?

Saying 21 teams passed on him means absolutely nothing.

Where was Arenas projected to be drafted?

Good question. Being at a small school and not being noticed isn't really the same as a GM consciously passing on you like 21 GMs did for Marcus.

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Rich:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by Rich:

21 teams. 'Nuff said.

Rich, nothing personal at all, but anytime someone brings this up I have to say, 21 teams passed on Arenas, some passed twice....what do they have to say?

Saying 21 teams passed on him means absolutely nothing.

Where was Arenas projected to be drafted?

Good question. Being at a small school and not being noticed isn't really the same as a GM consciously passing on you like 21 GMs did for Marcus.

who came from a small school? arenas was from AZ

Who said Arenas was from a small school? I was criticizing Joe's claim that being picked late is the same thing as being consciously passed on (see other threads). SOME people picked late are never even noticed rather than noticed and passed on.

Posted by Rich:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by Rich:

21 teams. 'Nuff said.

Rich, nothing personal at all, but anytime someone brings this up I have to say, 21 teams passed on Arenas, some passed twice....what do they have to say?

Saying 21 teams passed on him means absolutely nothing.

Where was Arenas projected to be drafted?

how about pierce and granger?

I cant believfe that people are using the"well 21 teams past" its like no one follows sports. Its in every sport every year.

Let me date myself. Dan Marino was picked late in the first round in 1983, somewhere between 26 and 28. He played at Pitt and was SUPPOSED to go no later than pick 10, but if people recall, that was the big QB draft that had Jim Kelly and John Elway --6 QBs when in that first round Marino was supposed to be #2 off the board and he fell and fell and fell, Who went before him, well in the NE we know Tony Eason and Ken Obrien went to the Pats and the Jets. Jim Kelly was picked 10 or 11th, but i forget by who. Todd Blackledge from Pennt St went to the Cheifs. I remember this well ebcause the jets had pick 24 and my brother and I were hoping to get Marino and we by passed him for Obrien---Marino fell 3 more spots but that is history.

Now Im not comparing any current player who slips in a draft to a HOF[and I would say easily that Kelly and Elway all are on the same page as Marino, the others not close, although all players werent bad. But the premise is clear--sometimes circumstances lead players falling lower than where they should that have nothing to do with the talent level of a player.


To be honest I would say that while Marcus Slipping to th Nets at 22 was a tad surprising[i had him going 17 to the pacers after i looked hard at the board at team needs] Balkman RAISING into the draft perhaps 30 or more slots is the real shocker and obviously the bigger ?

if someone is asking the question why did marcus fall to 21--my question to you is--how did a player who's own coach had many questions about, who was not ranked on any mocks, not even on the nBA draft list make it to spot 20????? It is EASILY one of the all time REACHES in any sport.

Posted by BRIGGS:

I cant believfe that people are using the"well 21 teams past" its like no one follows sports. Its in every sport every year.

Let me date myself. Dan Marino was picked late in the first round in 1983, somewhere between 26 and 28. He played at Pitt and was SUPPOSED to go no later than pick 10, but if people recall, that was the big QB draft that had Jim Kelly and John Elway --6 QBs when in that first round Marino was supposed to be #2 off the board and he fell and fell and fell, Who went before him, well in the NE we know Tony Eason and Ken Obrien went to the Pats and the Jets. Jim Kelly was picked 10 or 11th, but i forget by who. Todd Blackledge from Pennt St went to the Cheifs. I remember this well ebcause the jets had pick 24 and my brother and I were hoping to get Marino and we by passed him for Obrien---Marino fell 3 more spots but that is history.

Now Im not comparing any current player who slips in a draft to a HOF[and I would say easily that Kelly and Elway all are on the same page as Marino, the others not close, although all players werent bad. But the premise is clear--sometimes circumstances lead players falling lower than where they should that have nothing to do with the talent level of a player.


To be honest I would say that while Marcus Slipping to th Nets at 22 was a tad surprising[i had him going 17 to the pacers after i looked hard at the board at team needs] Balkman RAISING into the draft perhaps 30 or more slots is the real shocker and obviously the bigger ?

if someone is asking the question why did marcus fall to 21--my question to you is--how did a player who's own coach had many questions about, who was not ranked on any mocks, not even on the nBA draft list make it to spot 20????? It is EASILY one of the all time REACHES in any sport.

Oh please Briggs stop it, you had him going at 6. YOu were saying the KNicks need to move up to 10 to just sniff him. NOw he was going at 17. Several teams who don't have any quality at the pg spot passed on him. Teams that worked him out, too. "A bit shocking"

Posted by BRIGGS:

I cant believfe that people are using the"well 21 teams past" its like no one follows sports. Its in every sport every year.

Let me date myself. Dan Marino was picked late in the first round in 1983, somewhere between 26 and 28. He played at Pitt and was SUPPOSED to go no later than pick 10, but if people recall, that was the big QB draft that had Jim Kelly and John Elway --6 QBs when in that first round Marino was supposed to be #2 off the board and he fell and fell and fell, Who went before him, well in the NE we know Tony Eason and Ken Obrien went to the Pats and the Jets. Jim Kelly was picked 10 or 11th, but i forget by who. Todd Blackledge from Pennt St went to the Cheifs. I remember this well ebcause the jets had pick 24 and my brother and I were hoping to get Marino and we by passed him for Obrien---Marino fell 3 more spots but that is history.

Now Im not comparing any current player who slips in a draft to a HOF[and I would say easily that Kelly and Elway all are on the same page as Marino, the others not close, although all players werent bad. But the premise is clear--sometimes circumstances lead players falling lower than where they should that have nothing to do with the talent level of a player.


To be honest I would say that while Marcus Slipping to th Nets at 22 was a tad surprising[i had him going 17 to the pacers after i looked hard at the board at team needs] Balkman RAISING into the draft perhaps 30 or more slots is the real shocker and obviously the bigger ?

if someone is asking the question why did marcus fall to 21--my question to you is--how did a player who's own coach had many questions about, who was not ranked on any mocks, not even on the nBA draft list make it to spot 20????? It is EASILY one of the all time REACHES in any sport.

Briggs, I agree.

This is a guy we almost certainly could have gotten in the second round and probably as a free agent. Even if we have to have Balkman why not trade the pick - if we only get two seconds we still get Balkman and another player. To me drafting a guy like this with 20 is ridiculus - it's not like event IT thinks everyone is passing on a future all-star - I doubt Isiah believes the guy is ever gone a be a starter.