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dolan and isiah's side of the story
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djsunyc
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after seeing and hearing the interview, do you guys buy it?
i believe them
i'm not sure
this is propoganda and spin
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Rich
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6/26/2006  11:44 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by BasketballJones:

The idea that Larry had, or thought he had the ability to trade players isn't news:

“We spoke this morning. Coach pulled me out of film and basically told me he can do whatever he wants with this franchise -- and that he didn’t want to trade me, that he wanted me to be here. And that everything that went on the last week is over with.”

“Coach flexed the real hard juice card, I know that. He definitely made me aware of what he can do. But that doesn’t scare me at all. This can all turn around. We can make the adjustment. Anything is possible.”

--Stephon Marbury 3/16/2006

This was all public, so the question is, how hard of a Juice Card did Larry actually have?

Well he didn't make ANY trades unilaterally so I'd say that he didn't have anything close to the amount of juice that they're portraying him to have.

But he may have been the driving force behind two trades, so it really doesn't matter whether or not he could execute trades unilaterally.
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islesfan
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6/26/2006  11:46 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by djsunyc:

rich, lb can say whatever he wants. he will refute alot of what dolan and isiah said. but after you heard the interview, what are your thoughts on their side of the story?

On it's face, it was believable, but I would at least like to see their evidence that Larry negotiated with other GMs and Asst. GMs. If they have proof of it, that's huge.

How do you negotiate deals when you don't have authority to make them???

Whether or not Larry had explicit authority, he had apparent authority by virtue of his position.

Beyond that, if you're the GM of Team 1, and the GM of Team 2 offers you Player A for Player B, while the coach offers you Players A and C for Player B, the GM of Team 2 loses leverage because the GM of Team 1 may believe that the coach could pressure the GM into overpaying, thereby undermining his position.

Explicit and apparent??? Are you serious??? The fact of the matter is that he DIDN'T have ANY authority.

As far as your scenario, that's why you have a GM and you have a coach and that's why the GM is supposed to do what he feels is best regardless of what the coach wants. He's not supposed to be the doormat that they're now portraying Isiah to be.

If you are the GM of another team, and Larry Brown, the Hall of Fame coach making $10 mil per, is telling you that he can negotiate deals, you are going to take him seriously, irrespective of specific duties his contract outlines.

Why the hell would you negotiate with someone who doesn't have the authority to make the deal official???

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If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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6/26/2006  11:47 PM
The driving force??? Yeah, whatever that means.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Rich
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6/26/2006  11:49 PM
Posted by islesfan:

The driving force??? Yeah, whatever that means.

Impetus...at his request or insistence...

It comes down to a matter of proof, as I said. But to say that it's impossible that Larry breached his contract by interferring with Isiah's role as GM is absurd.
joec32033
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6/26/2006  11:51 PM
Larry had some juice is San Antonio, wanted Robinson trade...the GM said no make it work...he did....

Larry had some juice in Indiana, wanted Miller traded (I think)....the GM said no make it work...he did...

Larry had some juice in Philly, wanted Iverson traded...he was until Geieger didn't turn down his trade kicker....The GM then said to Larry, no make it work...he did...

Larry had some juice in Detroit, wanted Chauncy and Tayshaun traded...the GM said no make it work...he did...

Larry had some juice in NY....(supposedly) said he wanted Francis and Jalen.....Isiah said yeah, sure ok....so he got them...now he wishes he didn't.

What is the pattern here? The GM is the boss, no matter what the coaches perception. I feel you are really under estimating Zeke's role in these trades. Other GM's have told Larry no, and he moved on...that is the GM's role with Larry...he is the governer cable to LB's many wims....
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Finestrg
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6/27/2006  12:00 AM
Posted by realhiphop:

I still can't see how Steve Francis would have made sense in Larry's eyes.

Me too. But I think the man's rediculous hatred for Stephon Marbury obviously runs pretty deep. Deep enough to beg/bug management into doing a deal for a guy to come in and take Marbury's job right out from under him. Looks to me like Larry maybe really wanted to stick it to Steph in a "screw you Steph, see how life will go on without you now that we got Franchise" type of way by aquiring an instant replacement for Marbury that's very similar talent-wise. Now I'm sure he didn't spin it quite like that - in fact who knows how he pitched it to Zeke, sorry Dolan, (a question Trautwig should've asked) since Francis is clearly not his type of player but that looks to me like it could have been his motivation for wanting Francis. Just a thought.

islesfan
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6/27/2006  12:05 AM
Posted by Finestrg:
Posted by realhiphop:

I still can't see how Steve Francis would have made sense in Larry's eyes.

Me too. But I think the man's rediculous hatred for Stephon Marbury obviously runs pretty deep. Deep enough to beg/bug management into doing a deal for a guy to come in and take Marbury's job right out from under him. Looks to me like Larry maybe really wanted to stick it to Steph in a "screw you Steph, see how life will go on without you now that we got Franchise" type of way by aquiring an instant replacement for Marbury that's very similar talent-wise. Now I'm sure he didn't spin it quite like that - in fact who knows how he pitched it to Zeke, sorry Dolan, (a question Trautwig should've asked) since Francis is clearly not his type of player but that looks to me like it could have been his motivation for wanting Francis. Just a thought.

That only makes sense if he played Francis over Marbury but we know that didn't happen. Instead LB acted like he got stuck with not 1 but 2 malcontent shoot first PG's.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Killa4luv
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6/27/2006  12:15 AM
Posted by joec32033:

Larry had some juice is San Antonio, wanted Robinson trade...the GM said no make it work...he did....

Larry had some juice in Indiana, wanted Miller traded (I think)....the GM said no make it work...he did...

Larry had some juice in Philly, wanted Iverson traded...he was until Geieger didn't turn down his trade kicker....The GM then said to Larry, no make it work...he did...

Larry had some juice in Detroit, wanted Chauncy and Tayshaun traded...the GM said no make it work...he did...

Larry had some juice in NY....(supposedly) said he wanted Francis and Jalen.....Isiah said yeah, sure ok....so he got them...now he wishes he didn't.

What is the pattern here? The GM is the boss, no matter what the coaches perception. I feel you are really under estimating Zeke's role in these trades. Other GM's have told Larry no, and he moved on...that is the GM's role with Larry...he is the governer cable to LB's many wims....

You are talking about trading each teams franchise player, which is wholly different from trading expirings to acquire a player.

Plus, LB wasn't nearly as highly regarded then as he is now.
martin
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6/27/2006  12:47 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by islesfan:

Just wondering but if LB is at fault for all of this, the way Dolan and Isiah are portraying it to be, then why is Dolan giving Isiah an ultimatum of 1 yr to show improvement? Doesn't make sense, does it?

Because the Knicks are a business, not a friendship. If there isn't improvement in a year it will be a disaster of monumental proportions for his bottom line. It makes alot of sense. Whosever fault it is, its got to be fixed, and if the team is as good as he says it is, and LB was as bad as he says he was, the Knicks should show significant improvement.

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 06-26-2006 11:34 PM]

hasn't the win total gone down in each of Isiah's year at the helm? Chaney, Wilkens, LB were held accountable after about a year each. Isiah seems to have a 3 year window.
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Rich
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6/27/2006  12:48 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by islesfan:

Just wondering but if LB is at fault for all of this, the way Dolan and Isiah are portraying it to be, then why is Dolan giving Isiah an ultimatum of 1 yr to show improvement? Doesn't make sense, does it?

Because the Knicks are a business, not a friendship. If there isn't improvement in a year it will be a disaster of monumental proportions for his bottom line. It makes alot of sense. Whosever fault it is, its got to be fixed, and if the team is as good as he says it is, and LB was as bad as he says he was, the Knicks should show significant improvement.

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 06-26-2006 11:34 PM]

hasn't the win total gone down in each of Isiah's year at the helm? Chaney, Wilkens, LB were held accountable after about a year each. Isiah seems to have a 3 year window.

But don't you think the talent is better than when Isiah took over?
crzymdups
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6/27/2006  12:50 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by islesfan:

Just wondering but if LB is at fault for all of this, the way Dolan and Isiah are portraying it to be, then why is Dolan giving Isiah an ultimatum of 1 yr to show improvement? Doesn't make sense, does it?

Because the Knicks are a business, not a friendship. If there isn't improvement in a year it will be a disaster of monumental proportions for his bottom line. It makes alot of sense. Whosever fault it is, its got to be fixed, and if the team is as good as he says it is, and LB was as bad as he says he was, the Knicks should show significant improvement.

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 06-26-2006 11:34 PM]

hasn't the win total gone down in each of Isiah's year at the helm? Chaney, Wilkens, LB were held accountable after about a year each. Isiah seems to have a 3 year window.

how is the rampant drop off in wins not at all Larry's fault? clearly Isiah made mistakes, but I don't know why people find it so hard to believe that Brown played games with the lineup, games with Zeke and games with the players that were to the detriment of the team.
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nixluva
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6/27/2006  12:54 AM
The most important thing is that LB KILLED the Knicks this year. How can ANYONE who is a TRUE Knicks fan continue to support a man that made it IMPOSSIBLE to make a trade with another team. He killed the roster and thus the very players that he hated couldn't be traded, cuz he made it sound like they were uncoachable. Do you guys not see how CRAZY that is. TO beg for trades of certain guys, while totally DESTROYING their trade value. HOW DOES THAT WORK? You LB guys are all geniuses. TELL US HOW you trade a player with a HOF coach saying that the player is a bum? The record is one thing, but to make it harder for the GM to do his job is just unforgiveable. LB basically set us back on purpose.

I HOPE HE DOESN'T GET A DIME!!!
Allanfan20
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6/27/2006  1:06 AM
I believe that some of the stuff that Dolan and Isiah said had some credibility and that LB definitely was creating a lot of turbulence and may even brought up an environment in which he definitely deserved to be fired for. I am fine with that, and I am fine with Isiah coaching (Not having 2 jobs though.)

What I want to know though, is why did 1) Dolan and Isiah hire the guy, knowing perfectly well what Larry does, b/c everyone knew the stuff he does, and 2) Why did they succumb to Larry? They are the employers. Isiah is a hell of a talent evaluator, he should've known about Francis and Rose and what they were about, and it should have been HIS decision to go for them or not. Dolan just admitted that they wasted 80 million dollars b/c of this mistake. This isn't his money BTW. It is OURS.

So yes, if this is true, Larry should be gone, but at the same time, so should Dolan and Isiah.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
crzymdups
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6/27/2006  1:12 AM
Posted by islesfan:

Just wondering but if LB is at fault for all of this, the way Dolan and Isiah are portraying it to be, then why is Dolan giving Isiah an ultimatum of 1 yr to show improvement? Doesn't make sense, does it?

Because Isiah is responsible for bringing in the roster, so ultimately this is on him and the players he brought in. But I can't believe you refuse to see how Larry Brown could impact negotiations with other teams - his contract ran longer than Isiah's and for more money, if he comes to a GM and says I want this guy from you and I'll give you this guy who I don't want and Isiah calls back and says, no that guy is untouchable, whether or not Brown can make deals it affects Isiah's credibility and ability to negotiate. And this notion that Brown didn't want Rose and Francis is ridiculous.

I'm sorry, I know you hate Isiah, but then you should be thrilled, because if he is as bad as you say he is then he'll be gone in a year or less. But to act like Brown was trying his best to get this team wins and improve it is ridiculous. People who follow this team have been saying all year what Dolan and Isiah are saying now. Much of it is common sense. Brown has done this before. Last year Dumars and Davidson were saying the same things and they actually had success with Brown. This is very similar to how his last year in Indiana played out despite the fact that Donnie Walsh was one of Brown's closest friends. You always talk about Isiah's track record, how can you ignore Brown's?
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crzymdups
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6/27/2006  1:17 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

I believe that some of the stuff that Dolan and Isiah said had some credibility and that LB definitely was creating a lot of turbulence and may even brought up an environment in which he definitely deserved to be fired for. I am fine with that, and I am fine with Isiah coaching (Not having 2 jobs though.)

What I want to know though, is why did 1) Dolan and Isiah hire the guy, knowing perfectly well what Larry does, b/c everyone knew the stuff he does, and 2) Why did they succumb to Larry? They are the employers. Isiah is a hell of a talent evaluator, he should've known about Francis and Rose and what they were about, and it should have been HIS decision to go for them or not. Dolan just admitted that they wasted 80 million dollars b/c of this mistake. This isn't his money BTW. It is OURS.

So yes, if this is true, Larry should be gone, but at the same time, so should Dolan and Isiah.

1) they admitted tonight what I have been saying for a while - it was a play for credibility. that's why it was a heinous mistake.

2) they acquired those players to help Brown. Brown was ecstatic about Jalen after Jalen's first game. he said he'd asked for a passer, a veteran and he loved Jalen. then a month later Jalen barely got off the bench.
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Bonn1997
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6/27/2006  6:28 AM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by djsunyc:

rich, lb can say whatever he wants. he will refute alot of what dolan and isiah said. but after you heard the interview, what are your thoughts on their side of the story?

On it's face, it was believable, but I would at least like to see their evidence that Larry negotiated with other GMs and Asst. GMs. If they have proof of it, that's huge.

How do you negotiate deals when you don't have authority to make them???

Whether or not Larry had explicit authority, he had apparent authority by virtue of his position.

Beyond that, if you're the GM of Team 1, and the GM of Team 2 offers you Player A for Player B, while the coach offers you Players A and C for Player B, the GM of Team 2 loses leverage because the GM of Team 1 may believe that the coach could pressure the GM into overpaying, thereby undermining his position.

Explicit and apparent??? Are you serious??? The fact of the matter is that he DIDN'T have ANY authority.

As far as your scenario, that's why you have a GM and you have a coach and that's why the GM is supposed to do what he feels is best regardless of what the coach wants. He's not supposed to be the doormat that they're now portraying Isiah to be.

If you are the GM of another team, and Larry Brown, the Hall of Fame coach making $10 mil per, is telling you that he can negotiate deals, you are going to take him seriously, irrespective of specific duties his contract outlines.
Exactly. Like coaches, no GM has the authority to complete a transaction either. Only the team's owner does. If Larry calls you, you'd probably assume that they're on the same page and Isiah simply can't be talking to fifteen people simultaneously.
Solace
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6/27/2006  7:19 AM
I have to say that I honestly believe what Dolan was saying. Apparently Larry didn't work out, so let's just move on.

As for Dolan only giving Isiah a year, it's obvious that Dolan knows that some of the blame and responsibility falls with Isiah (and more for constructing the team as it was when Larry came in), and now Isiah has to get the job done or he will be fired as well. It's more than fair.

This was the first time I ever listened to Dolan without the thought that the guy is a total brain dead moron. Isiah didn't seem too happy about their situation, but I do think he will come out trying hard and the Knicks players will try to win for him.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
fishmike
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6/27/2006  7:28 AM
I think Larry was told some things that didnt happen, or didnt happen fast enough when he was hired. When they didnt happen he started his antics which merited him being fired. Larry's been a pain in the ass everywhere he's been, but he's never been like this before. I have no doubt Larry took this job because of the money, but after 5 minutes realized he was in a circus.

Is the talent upgraded Rich? I dont know.. it seems so on paper. Certainly there are some good young players, but are they good enough?

At least when Layden left we had the draft. We could have drafted, looked for young cheap players and waited it out for 2-3 years and been in great shape. Now there is nothing worth waiting for because we dont have our picks. We have guys signed for 3+ years.
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Bonn1997
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6/27/2006  7:28 AM
Cablevision's probably making less money from the Knicks then they used to. Dolan's naturally gonna hold people responsible. "Either start bringing in more money or I'll replace you with someone who will."
joec32033
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6/27/2006  8:05 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by joec32033:

Larry had some juice is San Antonio, wanted Robinson trade...the GM said no make it work...he did....

Larry had some juice in Indiana, wanted Miller traded (I think)....the GM said no make it work...he did...

Larry had some juice in Philly, wanted Iverson traded...he was until Geieger didn't turn down his trade kicker....The GM then said to Larry, no make it work...he did...

Larry had some juice in Detroit, wanted Chauncy and Tayshaun traded...the GM said no make it work...he did...

Larry had some juice in NY....(supposedly) said he wanted Francis and Jalen.....Isiah said yeah, sure ok....so he got them...now he wishes he didn't.

What is the pattern here? The GM is the boss, no matter what the coaches perception. I feel you are really under estimating Zeke's role in these trades. Other GM's have told Larry no, and he moved on...that is the GM's role with Larry...he is the governer cable to LB's many wims....

You are talking about trading each teams franchise player, which is wholly different from trading expirings to acquire a player.

Plus, LB wasn't nearly as highly regarded then as he is now.

That's bull. LB wanted to trade Steph, Steve, and Jalen. They are all supposed to be good players no? WHen Larry took the SA job he had 15 years experience as a coach. Was he as highly regarded as he is now, I would think so...look at the records he put together in the 14 years before he took that job...http://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/brownla01c.html...

Now look at your argument that the GM has to do what Larry wants him to. That is bull too. If that was the case why even have a GM if Larry was your coach? You do it as a system of checks and balances. The GM's job is to evaluate what is best for the team, and make sure the coach doesn't do items that only benefit him as opposed to the future of the team when he may not be here (such as trading 10 draft picks for a star player-obviously an exaggerated example), a system by the way that is now out of whack because Zeke can do just that as coach, GM and president of basketball operations-you don't tink he's gonna mortgage the future a little after Dolan said win in one year or you are out?
~You can't run from who you are.~
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