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Execs even state that what LB was doing was wrong !!!
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PhilinLA
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6/23/2006  4:20 PM
That Larry Brown sabotaged the team to try to force trades/consolidate power can't even be questioned after watching what we watched all year.

[Edited by - philinla on 06-23-2006 5:13 PM]
http://amonthhoffundays.blogspot.com/ We got a ringer.
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nyk4ever
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6/23/2006  4:22 PM
Posted by buddapaw:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Killa4luv:

Its pretty obvious. The Brownites will sound like Bill O'Reilly trying to defend the Bush Administration. Larry screwed up beyond belief, and there are strong indications that he purposely sabotaged our team. That alone is enough to not like him or want him here. That there are still people supporting him, is a testament to living life without logic.

I'm not supporting the man Larry Brown, I'm supporting the coach Larry Brown, the one who has turned around every franchise he's been at with his meticulous ways. He had a much better chance of turning this around then Isiah Thomas or anyone else has, thats for sure.


I guess you are trying to say that you are not supporting the man, but the coach which is one and the same. C'mon now bro really?? So I guess the "man" Larry Brown showed up this year and the coach didn't.
Man I hate the off season

[Edited by - buddapaw on 06-23-2006 3:53 PM]

Sorry you disagree.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Nalod
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6/23/2006  4:34 PM
Larry made a mistake.

He tried to coach a team so bad it reduced him.

Isiah made a lot of mistakes, including hiring the right coach for the wrong team.

Little Jimmy Dolan made a mistake by hiring Isiah.

Charles Dolan Made a mistake by not being insistant that Mrs. Dolan have that abortion.

Larry out, Isiah in. Let the healing begin.

Larry loses, the Larry Lubbers lost. Boo Hoo.

Hey, one day after Im over it.

Oh, look the team is still the laughing stock of the professional sports world. Larry Gets 20 or more million dollars, Isiah still got a job, and Dolan is still super rich.

Knick fans are embarrased and have dysfunctional management making oh so many bonehead mistakes every year. Larry Haters rejoice! What have you won by the way? Our coach is now the GM, coach and has a big lawsuit against him. Distractions! He is not nearly as good a game coach. He listens to his master, and he has a cool nick name. "Zeke"! People call him "Zeke" and don't know why. Just so cool!

Everything he has touched the futher he is from the court the more it turned to $hit!

His best post playing job was as coach. But the more you kick him upstairs, the worse he gets.

Toronto kicked him out, he grounded a league, and took a floundering franchise and turned it into the joke of the sporting world.

Im excited!

Russ Granik is our savior. Thats how bad it is.

We went from starphuching into Superstarphuching! We need a league geek to rebuild this franchise.
buddapaw
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6/23/2006  4:37 PM
I just found your quote funny, I wasn't trying to belittle and berate you, when all is said all of us here are on this board because we love our pro-team. You can't be posting a forum to express and exchange views and take things personally. Sorry if I offened.
"Low Percentage Shots r US, these are our Knicks" "NY KNICKS the cure for basketball fanatic"
islesfan
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6/23/2006  4:37 PM
Posted by PhilinLA:

That Larry Brown sabotaged the team to try to force trades/consolidate powere can't even be questioned after watching what we watched all year.

That's total BS. The only ones that sabotaged this season were the players. If they played the way LB wanted them to it never would have gotten that bad.

The players quit on LB or never tried in the first place, everything else that happened after that were just the repercussions.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
gunsnewing
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6/23/2006  4:38 PM
Brilliant post Nalod...I suggest every read it

"Charles Dolan Made a mistake by not being insistant that Mrs. Dolan have that abortion."
crzymdups
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6/23/2006  5:00 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by PhilinLA:

That Larry Brown sabotaged the team to try to force trades/consolidate powere can't even be questioned after watching what we watched all year.

That's total BS. The only ones that sabotaged this season were the players. If they played the way LB wanted them to it never would have gotten that bad.

The players quit on LB or never tried in the first place, everything else that happened after that were just the repercussions.

Isn't the coach setting them up to fail if they never know when they'll be on the floor? Basketball is a simple game. LB over complicates it, which can work wonders on a veteran team, giving them new wrinkles. But when you are working with a young roster that has 10 new players on the squad the first order of business should be establishing roles and a rotation so some sort of cohesion can be established. Brown never allowed that to happen.

I'm willing to account for injury for some of Brown's lineup changes, but the fact remains that other players who were healthy all year faced major fluctuations in minutes that had nothing to do with on the court performance. There have been other teams with far more injuries who didn't come close to the league record of starting lineups the Knicks put on the floor. The inconsistency in minutes had players playing tight when did get extended run, for fear that they would be taken out immediately and not get any time the next game.

Not only that, but he never told the players what they did wrong, just pulled them from the game. The media asked Trevor why he lost his starting job and wasn't playing as much and he said he didn't know because Brown hadn't talked to him. Brown called him delusional and said he didn't need to talk to Ariza. After a few days of back and forth in the papers, Brown finally spoke directly to Ariza. We've heard the same thing from Nate Robinson, Channing Frye, David Lee, Mo Taylor, Jamal, etc.

It was obvious he wanted to trade Ariza and Marbury and at one point Crawford, that he tried to arrange trades himself behind the scenes shouldn't come as a suprise.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 06-23-2006 5:01 PM]
¿ △ ?
nyk4ever
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6/23/2006  5:07 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by PhilinLA:

That Larry Brown sabotaged the team to try to force trades/consolidate powere can't even be questioned after watching what we watched all year.

That's total BS. The only ones that sabotaged this season were the players. If they played the way LB wanted them to it never would have gotten that bad.

The players quit on LB or never tried in the first place, everything else that happened after that were just the repercussions.

Isn't the coach setting them up to fail if they never know when they'll be on the floor? Basketball is a simple game. LB over complicates it, which can work wonders on a veteran team, giving them new wrinkles. But when you are working with a young roster that has 10 new players on the squad the first order of business should be establishing roles and a rotation so some sort of cohesion can be established. Brown never allowed that to happen.

I'm willing to account for injury for some of Brown's lineup changes, but the fact remains that other players who were healthy all year faced major fluctuations in minutes that had nothing to do with on the court performance. There have been other teams with far more injuries who didn't come close to the league record of starting lineups the Knicks put on the floor. The inconsistency in minutes had players playing tight when did get extended run, for fear that they would be taken out immediately and not get any time the next game.

Not only that, but he never told the players what they did wrong, just pulled them from the game. The media asked Trevor why he lost his starting job and wasn't playing as much and he said he didn't know because Brown hadn't talked to him. Brown called him delusional and said he didn't need to talk to Ariza. After a few days of back and forth in the papers, Brown finally spoke directly to Ariza. We've heard the same thing from Nate Robinson, Channing Frye, David Lee, Mo Taylor, Jamal, etc.

It was obvious he wanted to trade Ariza and Marbury and at one point Crawford, that he tried to arrange trades himself behind the scenes shouldn't come as a suprise.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 06-23-2006 5:01 PM]

We all know this, again as many of us who seem to support Brown more then others have said that we don't think he did a good job coaching this year. Brown himself knows that. What made me want to keep Brown is that everytime he has had a bad season in his coaching career he has come back and coached even better the next year and the records of his teams improved greatly the following year. Brown was here to start from scratch and I really think he was trying to do that. I would honestly like to know how he felt about this year in comparison to other years he's coached when teams had struggled his first year on the job, but we'll never know that.

The only reason I wanted Brown to stay around is because in this whole freaking organization he is the ONLY person who has had success in this organization as either a coach or gm. If there was a better GM and President running this franchise, I'd be first in line saying how badly I want Brown out, but theres not and thats why I wanted Brown here.

Brown is the only person with any kind of balls to stand up to Dolan so far and guess what, he got fired. This is not a good thing for us Knicks fans becuase Dolan does things his way and he knows NOTHING about basketball which means us Knicks fans are in for a loooooong road ahead.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 06-23-2006 5:08 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
PhilinLA
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6/23/2006  5:14 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by PhilinLA:

That Larry Brown sabotaged the team to try to force trades/consolidate powere can't even be questioned after watching what we watched all year.

That's total BS. The only ones that sabotaged this season were the players. If they played the way LB wanted them to it never would have gotten that bad.

The players quit on LB or never tried in the first place, everything else that happened after that were just the repercussions.
I don't know what you were watching but it wasn't his substitution patterns.

http://amonthhoffundays.blogspot.com/ We got a ringer.
islesfan
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6/23/2006  5:24 PM
Posted by PhilinLA:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by PhilinLA:

That Larry Brown sabotaged the team to try to force trades/consolidate powere can't even be questioned after watching what we watched all year.

That's total BS. The only ones that sabotaged this season were the players. If they played the way LB wanted them to it never would have gotten that bad.

The players quit on LB or never tried in the first place, everything else that happened after that were just the repercussions.
I don't know what you were watching but it wasn't his substitution patterns.

Yeah because unless you get guaranteed minutes and a set pattern, players shouldn't be expected to play hard and the way their coach wants them to. Is that how that works?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
EwingsGlass
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6/23/2006  5:33 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by PhilinLA:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by PhilinLA:

That Larry Brown sabotaged the team to try to force trades/consolidate powere can't even be questioned after watching what we watched all year.

That's total BS. The only ones that sabotaged this season were the players. If they played the way LB wanted them to it never would have gotten that bad.

The players quit on LB or never tried in the first place, everything else that happened after that were just the repercussions.
I don't know what you were watching but it wasn't his substitution patterns.

Yeah because unless you get guaranteed minutes and a set pattern, players shouldn't be expected to play hard and the way their coach wants them to. Is that how that works?

Hold on there, no one expects players to underperform. However, where there is no reliable expectation of continuity of one's role on the team, it is hard to mentally prepare for the game. Second, where substitutions occur without any practical correlation to performance or lack thereof, there is no standard of conduct to conform to. LB could not create a consistent starting lineup. During games, lineups that were performing well were not allowed to continue despite no evidence of fatigue or foul trouble. Players with hot hands were benched during hot streaks for no apparent reason. No cognizable rotation was put into place. The IR was used with indiscretion without regard to player's understanding of why they were on the IR. In short, LB's communcation stunk and if he had a plan in mind, he did not give players a chance to get on board. I understand he was 'admirable' and 'congenial', but he alienated players. I couldn't care whether he is here or gone, his track record is such that I would stick by him. But since he is gone, I am fine with that too. I hope IT performs better.
You know I gonna spin wit it
rvhoss
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6/23/2006  5:53 PM
for those that missed it...and we're not going to call it a manifest, or add it to our footers, just stating the facts.

Posted by EwingsGlass:


Hold on there, no one expects players to underperform. However, where there is no reliable expectation of continuity of one's role on the team, it is hard to mentally prepare for the game. Second, where substitutions occur without any practical correlation to performance or lack thereof, there is no standard of conduct to conform to. LB could not create a consistent starting lineup. During games, lineups that were performing well were not allowed to continue despite no evidence of fatigue or foul trouble. Players with hot hands were benched during hot streaks for no apparent reason. No cognizable rotation was put into place. The IR was used with indiscretion without regard to player's understanding of why they were on the IR. In short, LB's communcation stunk and if he had a plan in mind, he did not give players a chance to get on board. I understand he was 'admirable' and 'congenial', but he alienated players. I couldn't care whether he is here or gone, his track record is such that I would stick by him. But since he is gone, I am fine with that too. I hope IT performs better.



[Edited by - rvhoss on 06-23-2006 5:55 PM]
all kool aid all the time.
martin
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6/23/2006  6:49 PM
Posted by EwingsGlass:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by PhilinLA:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by PhilinLA:

That Larry Brown sabotaged the team to try to force trades/consolidate powere can't even be questioned after watching what we watched all year.

That's total BS. The only ones that sabotaged this season were the players. If they played the way LB wanted them to it never would have gotten that bad.

The players quit on LB or never tried in the first place, everything else that happened after that were just the repercussions.
I don't know what you were watching but it wasn't his substitution patterns.

Yeah because unless you get guaranteed minutes and a set pattern, players shouldn't be expected to play hard and the way their coach wants them to. Is that how that works?

Hold on there, no one expects players to underperform. However, where there is no reliable expectation of continuity of one's role on the team, it is hard to mentally prepare for the game. Second, where substitutions occur without any practical correlation to performance or lack thereof, there is no standard of conduct to conform to. LB could not create a consistent starting lineup. During games, lineups that were performing well were not allowed to continue despite no evidence of fatigue or foul trouble. Players with hot hands were benched during hot streaks for no apparent reason. No cognizable rotation was put into place. The IR was used with indiscretion without regard to player's understanding of why they were on the IR. In short, LB's communcation stunk and if he had a plan in mind, he did not give players a chance to get on board. I understand he was 'admirable' and 'congenial', but he alienated players. I couldn't care whether he is here or gone, his track record is such that I would stick by him. But since he is gone, I am fine with that too. I hope IT performs better.

and then there is Crawford. Didn't know his role. Started some games but came of the bench for most. SG or PG? 20 minutes 1 game, 46 the next. Didn't deter him from giving 100% OR getting better for the duration of the season.

Kinda shoots that theory, doesn't it?

Granted, lineups changes, substitution patterns were not obvious, minutes varied. But contracts are guarenteed and so should effort be guarenteed, and that did not happen from everyone on this team.
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oohah
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6/23/2006  7:35 PM
and then there is Crawford. Didn't know his role. Started some games but came of the bench for most. SG or PG? 20 minutes 1 game, 46 the next. Didn't deter him from giving 100% OR getting better for the duration of the season.

Kinda shoots that theory, doesn't it?

I don't think it shoots Ewing's theory. Did JC improve? I don't know if he really did, we'll see next season. Maybe he had improved coming in to this season, but he did not get the chance to show until the end of the year. It's tough to tell.

We know this for sure, Crawford played a lot better once he got consistent time, unfortunately by then we were in the last 15%-20% of the season. He definitely improved his performance over the earlier part of the season when he did not know when or how he was going to play.

Granted, lineups changes, substitution patterns were not obvious, minutes varied. But contracts are guarenteed and so should effort be guarenteed, and that did not happen from everyone on this team.

I think that the effort of the coach should be guaranteed with his $50,000,000 contract as well. Maybe he set a bad example for the players when he started acting like they couldn't win before the season even started, and they followed his lead?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
EwingsGlass
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6/23/2006  7:54 PM
Posted by martin:

[quote]

and then there is Crawford. Didn't know his role. Started some games but came of the bench for most. SG or PG? 20 minutes 1 game, 46 the next. Didn't deter him from giving 100% OR getting better for the duration of the season.

Kinda shoots that theory, doesn't it?

Granted, lineups changes, substitution patterns were not obvious, minutes varied. But contracts are guarenteed and so should effort be guarenteed, and that did not happen from everyone on this team.

As a moral highground, yes, effort should be guaranteed from every player. However, this "lack of effort" is merely a symptom of disenfranchisement. Crawford wanted to get traded. So did Qrich. They showed different symptoms of disenfranchisement. It is a fact that Crawford's total performance was exceptional in every category when he was getting prime minutes everyday in April. Other times during the year, he was putting up games with 0, 1 or 2 assists. All I am saying is that players perform better when they have a vested interest in the outcome of the game and they are treated with a certain degree of dignity. I don't think my theory is totally without merit.
You know I gonna spin wit it
Bonn1997
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6/23/2006  8:02 PM
and then there is Crawford. Didn't know his role. Started some games but came of the bench for most. SG or PG? 20 minutes 1 game, 46 the next. Didn't deter him from giving 100% OR getting better for the duration of the season.
Please...he had a few good months. Next time he has a good season will be his first.
Bobby
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6/23/2006  9:18 PM
larry brown's dream was to come back to new york and possibly win a championship. when larry realized things were not going his way he tried to discredit anything that did'nt have a winning record or a iq higher than his.

even greeny on espn said larry brown tanked the season just to get dolan's attention to how bad this team zeke put together.....why ? to get zeke's job

in doing so, imho, simpleton knick fans would come to larry lame's rescue by justifying his record and putting him above new york basketball and the organization.

what larry brown accomplished in new york with the years of experience and knowledge under his belt just to return the fans this kind of appreciation was most distastefull coaching display in knick history.

zeke needs to take responsibility for recruiting a winning record with no class
"Like they always say, New York is the Mecca of basketball,"I read that in Michael Jordan books my whole life and I played here in the Big East tournament, so it's always fun to play in the Mecca of basketball."---Rip Hamilton
nixluva
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6/23/2006  10:23 PM
Why should we kill Isiah for the moves he's made? Lets just go back and think about what he had to do in the 1st place. He had what was widely considered MISSION IMPOSSIBLE. How to trade the awful players we had and make a good team. He had Dolan give him the order to MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. Dolan doesn't care about anything else. Besides we still had MANY long term contracts that would make it impossible to just rebuild. H2O was still here and it wasn't yet clear that he wouldn't be able to get back to full health, so it was perfectly logical for IT to try and make a go of that roster which would have Steph, H2O and KT. He tried to get a decent center, but we all know that's hard to do. Nazr was OK, but not great. SO in year 2 he adds Jamal, which at the time wasn't a bad move if he could backup H2O and STeph. The real problem was that H2O was a huge key to all of this working and since he never got healthy, Isiah moved quickly to change the direction of the team. WHAT WAS SO WRONG ABOUT THAT?

He trades Nazr and we come into the draft with 3 picks and IT makes the best of those picks. He picks up Butler for noting. He adds QRich and James, tho that move came back to bite him on the butt. Still we had no reason to think QRich would be so bad and we had no center at the time so it was an understandable move. Then he gets LB and Curry. Really that's not a bad set of moves. I can't kill the man for any of those moves at the time. Now he had no way to know that LB would darn near tank the season. If LB had done what IT thought he would do, then this team fights for a playoff spot and the kids develop and everything is looking rosey for the next season.
Killa4luv
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6/24/2006  5:49 AM
Posted by martin:

and then there is Crawford. Didn't know his role. Started some games but came of the bench for most. SG or PG? 20 minutes 1 game, 46 the next. Didn't deter him from giving 100% OR getting better for the duration of the season.

Kinda shoots that theory, doesn't it?

Granted, lineups changes, substitution patterns were not obvious, minutes varied. But contracts are guarenteed and so should effort be guarenteed, and that did not happen from everyone on this team.
Martin this is a crock of BS. Crawford plays well in the final month after we are mathmatically eliminated from even mattering. I cannot stand here and let you and others paint Crawford as the great student of Browns Bball tutaledge. Craw was inconsistant throughout, improvement schmovent. So I guess its okay to sabotage your team if you can get 1 player on the whole roster to play well in the garbage time of the season?
Pharzeone
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6/24/2006  7:01 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by martin:

and then there is Crawford. Didn't know his role. Started some games but came of the bench for most. SG or PG? 20 minutes 1 game, 46 the next. Didn't deter him from giving 100% OR getting better for the duration of the season.

Kinda shoots that theory, doesn't it?

Granted, lineups changes, substitution patterns were not obvious, minutes varied. But contracts are guarenteed and so should effort be guarenteed, and that did not happen from everyone on this team.
Martin this is a crock of BS. Crawford plays well in the final month after we are mathmatically eliminated from even mattering. I cannot stand here and let you and others paint Crawford as the great student of Browns Bball tutaledge. Craw was inconsistant throughout, improvement schmovent. So I guess its okay to sabotage your team if you can get 1 player on the whole roster to play well in the garbage time of the season?

Didn't Crawford also play well down the stretch a year ago. Crawford seems to play well in meaningless games. I guess no pressure.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
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