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cap space and lottery picks wins again...
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Anji
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6/21/2006  2:04 PM
crzymdups: Another note on your buying stars ............... Didn;t the HEat give Bran Grant an 100 million dollar deal???? Is that part of the "Blue Print" the HEat used??? Over pay for aplayer that BReakers Down and some how turn that into a top Five player(at the time).

[Edited by - Anji on 06-21-2006 2:05 PM]

[Edited by - Anji on 06-21-2006 2:06 PM]
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
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crzymdups
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6/21/2006  2:09 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Kobe the best is laughable? Ever notice Shaq hasnt done very well in the playoffs without a superstar to take over in the 4th qtr? The Lakers picked Kobe in the draft and made a draft day trade for him. He's never played for any team but the Lakers. And the one non drafted guy on that list (I thought I mentioned that) was Shaq and he was aquired because the Lakers had cap space.

I said the LB signing made sense because the only way we were going to get this roster of painfully average players was to get them to play great team defense. I never so much as suggested that LB was going to make them a contender, but players from winning teams are more attractive, so Larry getting this group to overachieve was worth it IMO. We gave up on the draft, so no reason not to win.

Also despite a lot of losses and a roster bloated with expensive veteran contracts our young players got a lot of time. Also the time they got was in pretty big blocks. Rather than 5 minutes here and 10 minutes there we got to see Frye, JB, Lee and Nate play starter minutes over a block of games. Something Herb and Lenny didnt do

Yes, Kobe the best is laughable. Ever notice that Shaq makes any all-star who plays with him look like a superstar? Remember the days when people thought Penny Hardaway was the next Magic Johnson? Shaq is one of the most dominant players of all-time, even in his beaten down and old condition, the defense has to focus on him first and he commands a constant double-team. Now, math isn't my strong suit, but that means the rest of the defense is playing 3 on 4. There's a reason Shaq has played in 6 finals and won 4 rings and Kobe missed the playoffs as soon as Shaq left. But even if your saying Kobe was the Best: A) he wasn't a high lotto pick, he went 13th and B) they TRADED for that pick, whether or not you want to get into the semantics of whether that means it was a Lakers pick or not, it does imply that you can TRADE for a pick, no?

as for my old friend Larry, I liked when Larry played the rookies, but there was no consistency to it. How many teams in the league didn't have an 8 or 9 man rotation? We played 12 guys every night and minutes varied for everyone on the court every night. It was a joke. If you think that's good coaching, I have to disagree. It was a bad idea from the start. I think Zeke was playing for legitimacy and ignored the massive clash they would have over personnel. I would love for it to work, but I think with Dolan involved now there is no way that it can.
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crzymdups
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6/21/2006  2:13 PM
Posted by Anji:

crzymdups: Another note on your buying stars ............... Didn;t the HEat give Bran Grant an 100 million dollar deal???? Is that part of the "Blue Print" the HEat used??? Over pay for aplayer that BReakers Down and some how turn that into a top Five player(at the time).

yeah, Riles has handed out and tried to hand out some of the worst $100 million contracts in league history. he tried to give Juwan $100 million, too.

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PresIke
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6/21/2006  2:22 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by BasketballJones:

Also, don't feel bad that the Knicks didn't win a championship. The winner of a championship is not necessarily the better team. There are many, many asterisk series such as the one we just witnessed, last year's Spurs win and, most notoriously, the Pistons totally unwarranted win two years ago. In each of these series, the teams only won the series because they played better than the other team, and won more games.

[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 06-21-2006 09:47]

excellent analysis. We should award the trophy to the team before the finals series based on who is on the roster and how they could potentially play.


LOL.

Yo, BasketballJones, I thought you were saying to me that the better team wins in the Miami Champions thread and that the Mavs lost beause they are worse than Miami?

http://ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=16422
Posted by BasketballJones:

Well, Zo, Payton, and Walker may have got rings, but it was an asterisk series. Miami only won because the Mavericks were not as good a team as Heat, so they should not get full credit for the series.


[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 06-21-2006 09:38]

Color me seriously confused now...


[Edited by - PresIke on 06-21-2006 2:23 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
fishmike
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6/21/2006  3:04 PM
guys... get your facts straight. Bob Whisset (Portland) signed Brian Grant to that contract, then later traded him to Miami when they were still a playoff team.

And nobody is saying Shaq isnt great, only that he never won a title without a second superstar. Does Shaq win titles in Laker land without Kobe? If you ever watched that team I dont see how you could say yes.

A big reason for the inconsistant line ups is none of them did anything to establish themselves. I mean every guy had a good reason for getting benched. I'm not saying it helped, obviously it didnt but why not give Jackie a chance when Eddie cant guard anyone or stay out of foul trouble? If you really want to go the roster we can, but every guy on our team deserved to be benched at some time or another. It just didnt work, except maybe for Crawford who clearly changed his game as the season progressed.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Anji
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6/21/2006  3:30 PM
The fact remins that they were going to sign him that summer for the same deal anyway. Offering a player who isn't a superstar a deal like that is a Zeke move isn't it?????

There is no right way to build an title team. I would say that mortgaging your future every year is a really, really, really bad way though Dolan.

[Edited by - Anji on 06-21-2006 3:38 PM]
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
crzymdups
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6/21/2006  3:31 PM
Actually, Brian Grant had an opt out and Portland signed and traded him rather than pay him, thinking he wasn't worth a max deal. It was a three-way and Kemp went to POR from CLE and trying to replace Grant was why they made the Dale Davis for Jermaine O'neal trade. Grant's deal ran from 00-01 to 06-07 before the Lakers used the Allan Houston amnesty on him.

But I don't want to detract from the ceaseless "Isiah sucks" rants with any sort of facts.
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Solace
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6/21/2006  3:38 PM
Anyone who seriously can't see and understand what fish is saying is clearly in a world that we shall now call "Sugarcoated" land.

It's very simple. Some teams come out with a plan to build a good team. Others are known as the New York Knicks.

Bottom line, Knicks don't have a franchise type player, a complimentary legitimate #2 option and role players who believe in the system and teamwork. We don't even have a balanced roster. What we have is $125 million sunk into a team that's three trades away from balanced and the furthest away from being under the cap. Add in no lottery picks for the next two years and boy am I excited!

The Heat team was well built. They took advantage of opportunity and got to where they are. In order to take advantage of opportunity, they put themselves in a position to take advantage of it! That's the fact that most ignore.

Then again, who knows, maybe we can trade our expiring deals and three lottery picks and get Kwame Brown this time!
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
BasketballJones
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6/21/2006  4:01 PM
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by martin:
Posted by BasketballJones:

Also, don't feel bad that the Knicks didn't win a championship. The winner of a championship is not necessarily the better team. There are many, many asterisk series such as the one we just witnessed, last year's Spurs win and, most notoriously, the Pistons totally unwarranted win two years ago. In each of these series, the teams only won the series because they played better than the other team, and won more games.

[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 06-21-2006 09:47]

excellent analysis. We should award the trophy to the team before the finals series based on who is on the roster and how they could potentially play.


LOL.

Yo, BasketballJones, I thought you were saying to me that the better team wins in the Miami Champions thread and that the Mavs lost beause they are worse than Miami?

http://ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=16422
Posted by BasketballJones:

Well, Zo, Payton, and Walker may have got rings, but it was an asterisk series. Miami only won because the Mavericks were not as good a team as Heat, so they should not get full credit for the series.


[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 06-21-2006 09:38]

Color me seriously confused now...


[Edited by - PresIke on 06-21-2006 2:23 PM]

Look at it this way: The NBA is unfairly structured to favor the better team, or the team that plays better, during the championship series. It unfairly penalizes the teams that don't play as well, by allowing them to lose.

The Detroit win a couple of years ago is a perfect example. Detroit did not deserve to win - they only won because they played better than the Lakers. This is particularly important when it comes to coaching. Larry Brown deserves no credit at all for taking Detroit to a championship. He just did a better job of coaching than Phil Jackson.


[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 06-21-2006 16:02]
https:// It's not so hard.
islesfan
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6/21/2006  4:03 PM
So how many championship teams have been built the way Isiah is building this team, by trading away multiple high draft picks and capping themselves out with high priced and historically underachieving players?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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6/21/2006  4:04 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

Actually, Brian Grant had an opt out and Portland signed and traded him rather than pay him, thinking he wasn't worth a max deal. It was a three-way and Kemp went to POR from CLE and trying to replace Grant was why they made the Dale Davis for Jermaine O'neal trade. Grant's deal ran from 00-01 to 06-07 before the Lakers used the Allan Houston amnesty on him.

But I don't want to detract from the ceaseless "Isiah sucks" rants with any sort of facts.

You really think that there aren't any facts to support the fact that "Isiah Sucks"?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
crzymdups
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6/21/2006  4:07 PM
Posted by islesfan:

So how many championship teams have been built the way Isiah is building this team, by trading away multiple high draft picks and capping themselves out with high priced and historically underachieving players?

You mean like going out and signing Lamar Odom to a $60 million deal?
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islesfan
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6/21/2006  4:11 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:

So how many championship teams have been built the way Isiah is building this team, by trading away multiple high draft picks and capping themselves out with high priced and historically underachieving players?

You mean like going out and signing Lamar Odom to a $60 million deal?

Still waiting for an answer.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Anji
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6/21/2006  4:11 PM
Why is it Isiah???? YOu think isiah has a problem with Drafting High ceiling guys and letting them learn and play??? YOu think he is opposed to getting 7 foot small forwards and 6'10 shooting guards, then leting them develop??? YOu think he is against these things and they will change when he is gone???? Would Isiah Keep Camby and Nene???? Would he Keep Spree or trade him for Vanhorn????

Again, I don't like that Dolan wants a playoff team every year. It would be Great in Baseball, but it is really bad in Basket ball. But Don't act like luck isn't the biggest factor in Miamis Great team.

[Edited by - Anji on 06-21-2006 4:13 PM]

[Edited by - Anji on 06-21-2006 4:13 PM]
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
PresIke
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6/21/2006  4:16 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by martin:
Posted by BasketballJones:

Also, don't feel bad that the Knicks didn't win a championship. The winner of a championship is not necessarily the better team. There are many, many asterisk series such as the one we just witnessed, last year's Spurs win and, most notoriously, the Pistons totally unwarranted win two years ago. In each of these series, the teams only won the series because they played better than the other team, and won more games.

[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 06-21-2006 09:47]

excellent analysis. We should award the trophy to the team before the finals series based on who is on the roster and how they could potentially play.


LOL.

Yo, BasketballJones, I thought you were saying to me that the better team wins in the Miami Champions thread and that the Mavs lost beause they are worse than Miami?

http://ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=16422
Posted by BasketballJones:

Well, Zo, Payton, and Walker may have got rings, but it was an asterisk series. Miami only won because the Mavericks were not as good a team as Heat, so they should not get full credit for the series.


[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 06-21-2006 09:38]

Color me seriously confused now...


[Edited by - PresIke on 06-21-2006 2:23 PM]

Look at it this way: The NBA is unfairly structured to favor the better team, or the team that plays better, during the championship series. It unfairly penalizes the teams that don't play as well, by allowing them to lose.

The Detroit win a couple of years ago is a perfect example. Detroit did not deserve to win - they only won because they played better than the Lakers. This is particularly important when it comes to coaching. Larry Brown deserves no credit at all for taking Detroit to a championship. He just did a better job of coaching than Phil Jackson.


[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 06-21-2006 16:02]

Umm...which is it...The NBA is structured to help the better team or the team that plays better. Those are two completley differnt things. One team can be better, talent wise, but lose, and one team with less talent can play better than normal and lose to the "better team." To be honest, the more you try to explain the less your argument makes sense.

The NBA is structured to help "the better team" in that they create home court advantage for the team with the better record. I do have a problem with the 2-3-2 structure of the Finals, but teams earn that in the regular season by having won more games in the reg season. Home court advantage is structured to help the team that has the better record, to encourage teams to play for seedings and home court (where most teams typically have a better chance of winning).

Detroit did not deserve to win because the Lakers were a better team? Well then martin is right in what he wrote earlier. You think NBA teams should let you, BasketBallJones, decide who is the better team and forget about wasting their time and play a 7 game series. That's EXACTLY what you are saying here.

Then you add to this maddening logic (and I'm being kind in calling this a logical argument) by saying that Larry Brown "deserves no credit" for Detroit's championship because you suggest he outcoached Phil Jackson (which is a very strange argument). So, you mean to suggest that Larry Brown is a worse coach than Jackson, and therefore in that Finals matchup Jackson deserved the title, but since Brown has that Championship, instead of Jackson, Larry's deserves an asterix next to it??

So, based on the actual logic you used no one should bother playing the Finals or any other competition as long as you decide who is the better side. Otherwise if the opponent who you consider to be lesser wins they have to accept your label of having a asterix next to whatever acheivement they have made, like winning an NBA Title. Fortunately, they probably aren't too worried about your opinion of who deserves to win or not.





[Edited by - PresIke on 06-21-2006 4:16 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 06-21-2006 4:19 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
crzymdups
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6/21/2006  4:20 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by crzymdups:

Actually, Brian Grant had an opt out and Portland signed and traded him rather than pay him, thinking he wasn't worth a max deal. It was a three-way and Kemp went to POR from CLE and trying to replace Grant was why they made the Dale Davis for Jermaine O'neal trade. Grant's deal ran from 00-01 to 06-07 before the Lakers used the Allan Houston amnesty on him.

But I don't want to detract from the ceaseless "Isiah sucks" rants with any sort of facts.

You really think that there aren't any facts to support the fact that "Isiah Sucks"?

Oh, he's made plenty of sucky moves. But I think people like to fall back on that argument to prove whatever team of the moment is run better than ours. I'm merely pointing out that the Heat made plenty of mistakes along the way and got a little lucky. There was no grand design, they took advantage of opportunity. The main reason this team is in the hole its in is that it wiffed on pretty much every opportunity its had in the last 7 years. Passing on Artest. Trading for McDyess rather than drafting Nene or Amare. Resigning Allan Houston rather than rebuild. Trading Ewing for Garbage. Trading Glen Rice for high-paid garbage. Trading Penny and AD for garbage. Giving away Ariza. etc.

I actually don't have a problem with some of Isiah's moves, because I think they are decent gambles. The Crawford trade was a good move. Drafting Frye, Lee and Nate was a great draft. I understand the Marbury trade and I don't mind it. The Curry move has blown up in his face, at least so far and not protecting the lotto pick was atrocious, the fact that if Curry does worse for us the deal gets more costly is ridiculous. The Mo Taylor trade was retarded. The Jerome James signing was an abortion. The way Wilkens was treated was pathetic. The Larry Brown signing was a poor play for credibility in which he and Larry seemed to want to ignore the obvious fact that they have two very different philosophies on building a team.

I think Isiah has been around 50/50 on his moves. Obviously, the Curry trade will make or break him. I'm just trying to point out that acting like Miami had a grand design and we didn't is a total fallacy. There are articles all over the place today reminding us that NO ONE liked Riley's additions of Walker, Jason Williams, Payton and Posey. The way people perceive franchises and individual teams is so reactive its ridiculous. Everyone on the Knicks sucks because they had a bad season. People here want to rebuild like the Suns, Mavs, Nets, Spurs, Heat, Magic, whoever, depending on who has the better week. I think we have a good base of young players and decent trade chips to improve. People here say they want a full rebuild, but have little patience for anything resembling it.
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crzymdups
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6/21/2006  4:21 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Still waiting for an answer.

see? impatient.
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TMS
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6/21/2006  4:21 PM
let's face it guys... Riley made a mess of Miami through some very bad decisions, & it was only because he was able to draft Dwayne Wade that the team set itself up for a brighter future... w/o that, they'd still have a team made up of Odom, Jones & a bunch of other high priced veterans that wouldn't carry them anywhere but a 1st round exit in the playoffs at best... sound familiar?

let's not make Riley out to be some kinda of GM genius here... w/o that Wade draft pick they'd be just another wannabe capped out team in the Eastern Conference.

coaching wise, however, i don't think there's a better guy in the NBA, & that includes Jax & LB.

[Edited by - TMS on 06-21-2006 4:23 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
rvhoss
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6/21/2006  4:24 PM
and we have gone over this a million times, Blaming Isiah for acquiring jackieButler, Crawford, DLee, nate, Ariza, Qwoods, QRich, Frye and Curry (the team of the future) and not winning a championship in 2.5 years is just plain dumb and blind hate.

In 2.5 years we have the building blocks of a championship contender.

Shaq is going down as one of the best players ever, and he chose to leave orlando and chose to leave the lakers...the only thing you can credit the heat with having is a crappy season (to draft wade), a retirement like climate and Pat Riley

Because no riley in Miami, shaq doesn't demand to be traded there. No beach in miami, shaq doesn't DEMAND to be traded there, and no DWade in miami...

Stop acting like this is riley's long term plan...this is a plan he came up with two summer's ago when Shaq demanded to be traded from the lakers.

Before that, they were the same as the bulls, an overachieving playoff team.

If Dallas had won fish, you'd be posting the same exact post claiming that Harris and all the other kids on Dallas's roster were shrewd moves and they drafted Dirk because they sucked one year and happened to have their draft pick.

How come that stupid little formula didn't work when we got Ewing? We had cap space to sign Houston, and look, no rings.

Last week people were posting that the low post dominant center was the dinosaur of the league and we have to dump Curry.

Low and behold, dominant center (curry/shaq), shot blocking center (frye/mourning), chuck first SG that dominates the ball when called on (Crawford, Wade).

Surround them with overpaid me first veterans and Voila..championship.

IMHO, zeke is doing exactly what he needs to do and it has taken only 2.5 years.

How long did it take Riley?

I liked your post, but to keep saying we are doing it the wrong way because we didn't win a championship in less than 3 years with a capped out team of marginal players is bullsh!t.

Stop being such a chump and start looking at what we have assembled.

We have a YOUNG ATHLETIC dominant center, a YOUNG ATHLETIC shot blocking lottery player in frye (who could very well be that lottery player you say every team needs), a YOUNG ATHLETIC Combo guard in crawford, a YOUNG ATHLETIC rugged rebounding machine role player in David Lee, etc. etc. etc.

I'm getting sick of stating the obvious to the haters, but we are well on our way to putting together a team just like miami...and without the luck of Shaq.

if they weren't able to trade their high priced overpaid players (grant/Odom) for SHAQ...they would still be a .500 ball club (just like the lakers are).

So don't give me any crap about this being part of Riley's master plan.

His master plan was he lucked into Shaq.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 06-21-2006 4:30 PM]
all kool aid all the time.
djsunyc
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6/21/2006  4:24 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by crzymdups:

Actually, Brian Grant had an opt out and Portland signed and traded him rather than pay him, thinking he wasn't worth a max deal. It was a three-way and Kemp went to POR from CLE and trying to replace Grant was why they made the Dale Davis for Jermaine O'neal trade. Grant's deal ran from 00-01 to 06-07 before the Lakers used the Allan Houston amnesty on him.

But I don't want to detract from the ceaseless "Isiah sucks" rants with any sort of facts.

You really think that there aren't any facts to support the fact that "Isiah Sucks"?

Oh, he's made plenty of sucky moves. But I think people like to fall back on that argument to prove whatever team of the moment is run better than ours. I'm merely pointing out that the Heat made plenty of mistakes along the way and got a little lucky. There was no grand design, they took advantage of opportunity. The main reason this team is in the hole its in is that it wiffed on pretty much every opportunity its had in the last 7 years. Passing on Artest. Trading for McDyess rather than drafting Nene or Amare. Resigning Allan Houston rather than rebuild. Trading Ewing for Garbage. Trading Glen Rice for high-paid garbage. Trading Penny and AD for garbage. Giving away Ariza. etc.

I actually don't have a problem with some of Isiah's moves, because I think they are decent gambles. The Crawford trade was a good move. Drafting Frye, Lee and Nate was a great draft. I understand the Marbury trade and I don't mind it. The Curry move has blown up in his face, at least so far and not protecting the lotto pick was atrocious, the fact that if Curry does worse for us the deal gets more costly is ridiculous. The Mo Taylor trade was retarded. The Jerome James signing was an abortion. The way Wilkens was treated was pathetic. The Larry Brown signing was a poor play for credibility in which he and Larry seemed to want to ignore the obvious fact that they have two very different philosophies on building a team.

I think Isiah has been around 50/50 on his moves. Obviously, the Curry trade will make or break him. I'm just trying to point out that acting like Miami had a grand design and we didn't is a total fallacy. There are articles all over the place today reminding us that NO ONE liked Riley's additions of Walker, Jason Williams, Payton and Posey. The way people perceive franchises and individual teams is so reactive its ridiculous. Everyone on the Knicks sucks because they had a bad season. People here want to rebuild like the Suns, Mavs, Nets, Spurs, Heat, Magic, whoever, depending on who has the better week. I think we have a good base of young players and decent trade chips to improve. People here say they want a full rebuild, but have little patience for anything resembling it.

actually, miami drafted butler. drafted wade. then got enough cap room to go after brand (which was matched) then signed odom.

they made it to game 7 in the 2nd round that year.

then the next summer came the shaq deal.

they were on their way to good places BEFORE shaq.
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