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Islesfan, Fish....for the last time....Brown Wanted Francis & Rose
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TMS
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6/15/2006  1:41 PM
Posted by Rich:

Larry is a duplicitous jerk. He cares more about himself than the franchise.


as do u... as does everyone else on this message forum, in madison square garden, & everyone else on the KNicks payroll... anyone who says otherwise is a big fat liar.

[Edited by - TMS on 06-15-2006 1:42 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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crzymdups
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6/15/2006  2:00 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by nyk4ever:


So everything that is said in the press should be taken as fact? Just like when Isiah goes back on forth about whether this team is rebuilding it or not? Face it, your favorite GM is a loose cannon who will do whatever it takes to keep his job. If you can't see that Isiah has coveted and acquired the SAME KIND of player since he got here then your blind. Marbury, Crawford, Curry, Jalen, Francis. Wow, real tough to see there.

The fact that Larry Brown has never liked coaching players like this and Isiah loves these types of players seems to put the issue to rest for me on who pulled the trigger. Anyone who is willing to look at things openly instead of rely on a bunch of stupid quotes during a press conference for a player just brought to thet ballclub will see the trail of breadcrumbs that leads to Isiah.

"Believe everything you read in the press"??!??!? We're talking about DIRECT quotes from Larry Brown.

How about this quote from Isiah Thomas, taken July 19 of last year.
“Everyone says if you try to rebuild in New York it will be a death sentence. Everyone says that except the fans, the ones who pay and come to Madison Square Garden.”“Everyone says if you try to rebuild in New York it will be a death sentence. Everyone says that except the fans, the ones who pay and come to Madison Square Garden.”

People can knock and rip into Isiah all they want but at least he’s not living in Fantasyland like previous regimes. The reality is the Knicks are a team in transition that has been forced to adjust their course with the injury to Allan Houston, who likely will be an ex-Knick.

The Knicks are expected to field a payroll of $125 million, which is 22 more than last season. But at least they don’t want to wait it out, they want be proactive about dealing with the problem and at the same time get younger.

Yeah he really did rebuild that team. He tried to rebuild it so much that he went out and got 2 highpriced veterans instead holding onto a younger player in Ariza. Instead he goes out and acquires more contracts.

See, people say things in the press when they HAVE to put a spin on something.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 06-15-2006 1:02 PM]

Yes, of course he rebuilt the team. What do you think turning over the entire roster in two years is? It's not like we have an old, slow team. The team is young with plenty of room for improvement from within.

As for trading Ariza - are you kidding me? I seem to remember Brown destroying Ariza, calling him delusional and benching him. Was there ever a complaint about Ariza before Brown? Lenny loved him. Herb loved him. Isiah loved him. Brown didn't like Ariza because he was a little arrogant. Memo to Brown: Athletes need a little arrogance. Brown certainly has it in spades.
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McK1
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6/15/2006  2:02 PM
Lenny and Herb were told to love whomever Isiah loved.

04-05 JYD started the season getting the backup 3 minutes:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jerome_williams/game_by_game_stats.html

Ariza is a 15 mpg energy guy. time to move on

[Edited by - McK1 on 06-15-2006 2:11 PM]

[Edited by - McK1 on 06-15-2006 2:13 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
fishmike
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6/15/2006  2:15 PM
Posted by Andrew:

Regardless of how much LB wanted each player....Isiah is still the GM and ultimatly responsible for the trades.
yea... I dont know why some people on this board are so slow to get this. Its a little sad.

Lets review (for the last time)
GM - makes trades and personel moves. Decides whats best for team at all times in this regard.
Coach - make line ups, sub players, manage actual games. Is only in change of the roster as it pertains to the actual game.

Nuff said indeed.

Look, I have no problem with Isiah absolving himself of responsibility when it comes to a guy like QWoods. Larry says he wants him fine. There is no downside. If he blows up you cut him. End of story. Getting Steve Francis and Jalen Rose for that matter is totally different. They change the face of your franchise. They change the dynamics of the roster. They change your ability to make future moves. They alter the chemistry of the roster. This is the GMs job. This is what he has to factor in when deciding whether or not to make a roster move. This is what our GM NEVER thinks about, he just pulls the trigger regardless of those questions.

Are we clear?

Lets say it all together.

Isiah traded for Francis
Isiah traded for Jale Rose.


"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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6/15/2006  2:16 PM
Posted by McK1:

Lenny and Herb were told to love whomever Isiah loved.

04-05 JYD started the season getting the backup 3 minutes:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jerome_williams/game_by_game_stats.html

Ariza is a 15 mpg energy guy. time to move on

[Edited by - McK1 on 06-15-2006 2:11 PM]

[Edited by - McK1 on 06-15-2006 2:13 PM]

he was a 15mpg energy at 19yrs old. it's called developing players. oh yeah, I forgot, the great Brown-dini doesn't know how to do that.

Lenny wasn't involved in any Zeke conspiracy, he was a damn fine coach. I don't know why Helm had to be fired, but I wish Lenny had stuck around.
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Rich
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6/15/2006  2:17 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Rich:

Larry is a duplicitous jerk. He cares more about himself than the franchise.


as do u... as does everyone else on this message forum, in madison square garden, & everyone else on the KNicks payroll... anyone who says otherwise is a big fat liar.

[Edited by - TMS on 06-15-2006 1:42 PM]

You're missing the point. It's not a question of: Gun to your head, who would you save, yourself or the franchise.

It's about a duty of loyalty to the organization that pays you, in Larry's case, big freakin' bucks.

In another words, if you ask the owner to lay out major money for players that you want him to acquire, you don't act like a 15 year old girl, and choose your associations by a whim.

Rather, you make a commitment to making it work, even if it means adapating your coaching philosophy.

Not Larry, he just complains because he now thinks that he is as good as his contract. He's not. He a whiny little bitch.
crzymdups
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6/15/2006  2:18 PM
Posted by fishmike:


Lets say it all together.

Isiah traded for Francis
Isiah traded for Jale Rose.

yeah, if you say it enough times, we may actually believe. oh wait, no. because anyone paying attention who doesn't have some sort of agenda knows that Larry CAMPAIGNED for Jalen Rose. So please, just drop this. You can make a heck of a case against Isiah, but those trades have just as much to do with Brown.

Here's the biggest case against Isiah: he hired Larry Brown.
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McK1
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6/15/2006  2:19 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

[quote]Posted by McK1:



Lenny wasn't involved in any Zeke conspiracy

are you sure? Lenny stated in his interview he and Isiah were not on the same page and this is the 1 job he should have never took.

who gave the order to bench Shandon in Atlanta ending his games played streak coincidentally making Steph the Knick with the active streak



[Edited by - McK1 on 06-15-2006 2:21 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Rich
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6/15/2006  2:21 PM
Let's say it all together: Larry has a contractual right to have a voice player personnel decisions:

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-spknix154781990jun15,0,7541394.story?coll=ny-knicks-print

"He [Larry] has the right to be involved in all personnel decisions. If Brown has no input on the Knicks' two first-round picks, who's in violation of their contract then?"

[Edited by - Rich on 06-15-2006 2:21 PM]
crzymdups
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6/15/2006  2:22 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by crzymdups:

[quote]Posted by McK1:



Lenny wasn't involved in any Zeke conspiracy

are you sure? Lenny stated in his interview he and Isiah were not on the same page and this is the 1 job he should have never took.

yeah, I hate the way the Lenny thing went down. That's why I've said before and I'll now - if Zeke really doesn't like the way anyone else is coaching this roster, he has to do it himself. I really don't see any other option.
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crzymdups
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6/15/2006  2:28 PM
Posted by Rich:

Let's say it all together: Larry has a contractual right to have a voice player personnel decisions:

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-spknix154781990jun15,0,7541394.story?coll=ny-knicks-print

"He [Larry] has the right to be involved in all personnel decisions. If Brown has no input on the Knicks' two first-round picks, who's in violation of their contract then?"

[Edited by - Rich on 06-15-2006 2:21 PM]

thank you. absolutely. this idea that Thomas made these moves in a vacuum is insulting to everyone.
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BasketballJones
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6/15/2006  2:35 PM
Do you promise this will be the last time?
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BlueSeats
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6/15/2006  2:59 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
The fact that Larry Brown has never liked coaching players like this
If you watched Larry's rotations this year, you'd have to conclude that he likes overpaid, lazy veterans a lot more than hardworking young players.


These were his top 5 minute getters, with frye missing the end of the season to injury.

CRAWFORD
MARBURY
CURRY
FRYE
NATE

Glad to see you finally call Steph the lazy overpaid guy that he is, but who else fits?
BlueSeats
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6/15/2006  3:03 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

[
yeah, I hate the way the Lenny thing went down. That's why I've said before and I'll now - if Zeke really doesn't like the way anyone else is coaching this roster, he has to do it himself. I really don't see any other option.

I don't see this as a good thing. isiah can't support any other coach and neither can Marbury. being inflexible and stuck really isn't a good place to be.
Rich
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6/15/2006  3:09 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Bonn1997:
The fact that Larry Brown has never liked coaching players like this
If you watched Larry's rotations this year, you'd have to conclude that he likes overpaid, lazy veterans a lot more than hardworking young players.


These were his top 5 minute getters, with frye missing the end of the season to injury.

CRAWFORD
MARBURY
CURRY
FRYE
NATE

Glad to see you finally call Steph the lazy overpaid guy that he is, but who else fits?

I would like to see the "top 5 minute getters" for the first 41 games.
BlueSeats
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6/15/2006  3:10 PM
As for the Rose and Francis trades, I think we have to accept there were no good options. Isiah's shown nothing but haste to trade Layden's guys a great reluctance to trade his own. As a consequence we're limited to trading expiring contracts, and guys like Ratliff, K-mart, Rose and Francis are the the pool you get to chose from.

As bad as those choices may have been what we don't know is how much better or worse they may have been than the alternatives, but i suspect any deadline trade of expiring contracts would have left us equally unfulfilled and overextended.

Blame the choices all you want on Brown, but the methodology is all Isiah's.
crzymdups
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6/15/2006  3:10 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by crzymdups:

[
yeah, I hate the way the Lenny thing went down. That's why I've said before and I'll now - if Zeke really doesn't like the way anyone else is coaching this roster, he has to do it himself. I really don't see any other option.

I don't see this as a good thing. isiah can't support any other coach and neither can Marbury. being inflexible and stuck really isn't a good place to be.

Isiah seemed resigned to working with Brown. This fire Brown thing is coming because Dolan is pissed. But Isiah traded Ariza to get Brown Jalen and he signed Qyntel and he traded for Francis (presumably to have a replacement for Marbury i.e. he was going to pursue Marbury trades for Brown). If we're stuck, a lot of it has to do with Dolan.
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Rich
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6/15/2006  3:11 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

As for the Rose and Francis trades, I think we have to accept there were no good options. Isiah's shown nothing but haste to trade Layden's guys a great reluctance to trade his own. As a consequence we're limited to trading expiring contracts, and guys like Ratliff, K-mart, Rose and Francis are the the pool you get to chose from.

As bad as those choices may have been what we don't know is how much better or worse they may have been than the alternatives, but i suspect any deadline trade of expiring contracts would have left us equally unfulfilled and overextended.

Blame the choices all you want on Brown, but the methodology is all Isiah's.

The best option was to try to accumulate cap room to make a run at LeBron.
BlueSeats
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6/15/2006  3:26 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Bonn1997:
The fact that Larry Brown has never liked coaching players like this
If you watched Larry's rotations this year, you'd have to conclude that he likes overpaid, lazy veterans a lot more than hardworking young players.


These were his top 5 minute getters, with frye missing the end of the season to injury.

CRAWFORD
MARBURY
CURRY
FRYE
NATE

Glad to see you finally call Steph the lazy overpaid guy that he is, but who else fits?

I would like to see the "top 5 minute getters" for the first 41 games.

Sure, I'd love to see someone else do some homework.

But what difference does it make? Do you really think Dolan was willing to amass a 125M roster and trade so many first round picks in order to watch late round draft picks lead our club? Why is it that Larry played frye more than Sweets in spite of injury and nate more than ariza even though he had marbury, JC, QR and francis in front to him and Ariza only had TT who was having his worst pro season ever. And this was in a year when we had no draft pick vs a year where tanking for lottery position made sense?

If isiah and Dolan are so into throwing kids out there to bear the brunt of all this NY glare and pressure why didn't it happen before Brown, when they played dominatrix with lenny and herb?
Rich
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6/15/2006  3:29 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Bonn1997:
The fact that Larry Brown has never liked coaching players like this
If you watched Larry's rotations this year, you'd have to conclude that he likes overpaid, lazy veterans a lot more than hardworking young players.


These were his top 5 minute getters, with frye missing the end of the season to injury.

CRAWFORD
MARBURY
CURRY
FRYE
NATE

Glad to see you finally call Steph the lazy overpaid guy that he is, but who else fits?

I would like to see the "top 5 minute getters" for the first 41 games.

Sure, I'd love to see someone else do some homework.

But what difference does it make? Do you really think Dolan was willing to amass a 125M roster and trade so many first round picks in order to watch late round draft picks lead our club? Why is it that Larry played frye more than Sweets in spite of injury and nate more than ariza even though he had marbury, JC, QR and francis in front to him and Ariza only had TT who was having his worst pro season ever. And this was in a year when we had no draft pick vs a year where tanking for lottery position made sense?

If isiah and Dolan are so into throwing kids out there to bear the brunt of all this NY glare and pressure why didn't it happen before Brown, when they played dominatrix with lenny and herb?

If the aforementioned "overpaid lazy veterans" got the bulk of the minutes when the season was still viable, it would tend to indicate that Larry did foresake the kids when the goal of the season from the outset should have been to develop them.
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